F55: New F55 owner, new to forum, new to industry - any advice, hints etc

captainjman

captainjman

Well-known member
Hello

I just purchased a used Sony F55 and found this forum - so I wanted to learn everything I can.. and introduce myself.

I of course will be reading as many threads as I can about topics that pop up, or issues I run into - I just wanted to ask if there was any information I should know right away, any threads that I should read first, perhaps there are some of you from the Chicago area that I might get to know a little better as well.

I have a lot of experience with photography - but not much in the way of movie making. My ultimate goal would be to film feature length movies that I write and direct.. and most likely shoot myself. In the mean time I would like to make money in this industry and get as much experience as possible. Got any advice for a newbie looking to get into the business... I lost my career and find this one very interesting. I am trying to teach myself everything I can. Any ideas of where to start?

Jason
 
Welcome to the club.

The F55 is an awesome camera for your new journey.

:)


Tip #1: shoot using the slog2 gamma mode to improve the overall dynamic range of the camera and get rid of plastic hard clipping looking highlights. Read the white paper http://www.starcentral.ca/forums/SLOG.pdf on slog to understand the concepts behind slog2 and why exposure is slightly different than with traditional methods.
 
Tip#2: calculate an estimate of how much money you have and will will ever have access to. Double that result. This is how much it costs to make movies.

Tip#3: Making movies is the cross roads of Art and Science. Not fashion. Do not be sucked into the never ending trap of making your camera a fashion statement. Tell a story, make everyone forget they are watching a flat screen with sequential still images imitating reality. Suck the audience in. They do not care what camera or firmware or RAW data you used to get there. You must have an understanding of the technology, but technology is not the movie.

Tip#4: Add up all the patience in the whole world. Double that result. This is how much patience it takes to make a movie.

Have fun. Welcome. Good luck. If you have not yet spent all of your money, I am available ;-)
 
Thanks for the warm welcome

Thanks for the warm welcome

rx8pilot said:
Tip#2: calculate an estimate of how much money you have and will will ever have access to. Double that result. This is how much it costs to make movies.

Tip#3: Making movies is the cross roads of Art and Science. Not fashion. Do not be sucked into the never ending trap of making your camera a fashion statement. Tell a story, make everyone forget they are watching a flat screen with sequential still images imitating reality. Suck the audience in. They do not care what camera or firmware or RAW data you used to get there. You must have an understanding of the technology, but technology is not the movie.

Tip#4: Add up all the patience in the whole world. Double that result. This is how much patience it takes to make a movie.

Have fun. Welcome. Good luck. If you have not yet spent all of your money, I am available ;-)
Click to expand...


That white paper sure has a lot of specific information in it doesn't it. Whenever you start a new career / hobby - whatever this will end up being, there is a stage where you feel you are "trying to drink from a fire hose." Such is the case at the moment, and I am glad it is this way - otherwise how can we ever feel pride for our accomplishments...right?

It seems I can't sleep - and this time not for the usual reason - but I kept going back to the F55, hooking up my Zacuto EVF (not the sony offerings yet) - and playing around with the settings, deciding how to set up the camera. And It seems I do have a few quick questions:

1. Shutter Speed vs Angle = is there a specific benefit to using one unit of measurement than the other? Does a setting other than 180 degrees / 1/28th (24p) change any characteristics of the global shutter in any way? I have seen angles ranging from 359 in the past (other camera demos- Red Epic maybe?) - but I don't see those options here.

2. Is there any way to force the AXS-R5 to record in normal HD - it would be the most cost effective media (512GB is $1800, vs 128gb x4 x$1400=5600/512gb) - isn't ironic that 4k RAW requires less expensive media than 1920x1080p?

3. Firmware was never upgraded on this F55, are both the upgrades free and available from home, or do they require being sent to Sony and/or paid upgrades. At the moment I cannot get to the 240fps obviously

4. Has there been any discussion about the F55 getting a faster frame rate capability in the future. Since the FS700 can do 960fps and does not have better internal components than the F55, wouldn't it seem likely that the F55 is physically capable of delivering at least the frame rate of it's little brother?

5. RX8pilot - When you say " If you have not yet spent all of your money, I am available" - was that an offer of prostitution? LOL - JK, I am sure you are a very moral person. HAHAHAHAHA. Seriously though, your screen names says "pilot" - are you an A V 8 OR too? If so, what do you fly?

6. Starcentral - Thanks for the warm welcome. I set up the camera onto S-log Gamma as you suggested and am going to head out and test the camera some more today. It's exciting to have a real camera and not just a DSLR now. I don't have a 4k monitor or TV!!! Which ones do you use/suggest?

7. Where would you guys suggest I start trying to pick up some low level gigs to build experience, pay my dues, etc?
 
That white paper is specific to the sony F35 and F3, but the concepts are the same so it is important to understand why it is the way it is, and how exposure is determined. Note that for slog2 middle grey (a grey card) is transposed down to 32% IRE and 90% white reflectance is around 59%. The latest firmware for the F55 added MLUTS (monitoring LUT's) so that you can transpose these slog2 values back to the "regular" scale for viewing purposes or even viewing on a waveform monitor - all whilst recording the un-altered slog2 signal to your media with the intention of working with slog2 in post and grading it, etc..

1. 180 degrees = 1/48th shutter when you are in 24p (24fps) mode. Also there is an option to turn shutter "off" completely which is equal to 360 degree shutter. On the F55 you can work in either the shutter speed or shutter angle depending what you are use to.

2. You can only record RAW to the R5.

3. You can download the latest firmware from the Sony F5/F55 forums. Just type the word firmware in the search box and look for v3.0 which just came out in December.

4. No discussion about higher than 240fps I am aware of but who knows.

6. Remember with slog2 the image will look white, lacking contrast and "weird" in your viewfinder or monitor. (kind of like flat picture profile for DSLR). This is the way it is and most people over-expose slog2 by accident because they are trying to expose for what they see rather than for the values I mentioned. So be conscious of that. One trick is to set your zebras to 60%-70% and keep anything that is "white" not exceeding it.

I am using an OLED VF from Sony, and for external monitor an Ikan D7W. I recommend anything with a waveform monitor with markings so you can be sure about your exposure. There are far better brands than Ikan...

7. When you figure this out please let me know. :happy: Find some local meetup groups in your area perhaps to do with filmmaking, cinematography, writing, etc.. and start networking.
 
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Learn the tech as you can, but do not let it consume you. The tech will have very little bearing on how normal people perceive your work.

I talk a lot of tech on here, but it's a weird fetish/hobby of mine. When I'm working shooting, I am concerned with everything BUT the tech I speak of here.

Shoot as much as you can in the early years, even if you are not getting paid. You will make a zillion mistakes before you get good. Get the mistakes out of you. It will take years and years, so get started now.
 
I did not mean to be too sarcastic. After 20+ years you will appreciate the subtle wisdom embedded in my sarcasm. I positively want the the best for anyone that has jumped into filmaking head first. It does, however, make my heart skip a beat or two when I see a request for help in skipping the first few years of experience. I had a lot of mentors in my early years an they were crucial to my learning process. I spent countless days, weeks, and months experimenting based on my observations of those that were mentoring me. I worked as a sound guy, grip, electrician, video assist, music playback, AC, loader, etc... That allowed me to get on jobs on FAR bigger productions than what I was qualified for and see how the big boys solve problems. I never saw it as paying my dues, but simply a great way to learn a craft that can never be summed up in a paragraph. It's a career of subtleties that are always changing in pursuit of a new captivating look that better engages the audience to the story being told.

What Nate said is very true. You have to know the fundamentals of photography (which it sounds like you do), you have to know what happens technically from the time the light enters the lens until someone sees it on the screen (which I suspect is why you are here), you have to be able focus on shooting when the day comes. If you are fiddling with buttons and technical details, you will not likely be able to capture the right moments.

"1. Shutter Speed vs Angle"
In the end, it does not matter. They describe the same thing two different ways. The angle is a term from the mechanical film movements where the product of shutter angle the frame rate determined the exposure time. Video cameras have traditionally used a fraction as a way to describe the exposure time.

"4. Has there been any discussion about the F55 getting a faster frame rate capability in the future. Since the FS700 can do 960fps and does not have better internal components than the F55, wouldn't it seem likely that the F55 is physically capable of delivering at least the frame rate of it's little brother?"
Keep in mind that the 960fps is not a free lunch, you end up with a low-res image. I would not normally shoot faster than 240fps with FS700 to keep the image HD

"5. RX8pilot - When you say " If you have not yet spent all of your money, I am available" - was that an offer of prostitution? LOL - JK, I am sure you are a very moral person. HAHAHAHAHA. Seriously though, your screen names says "pilot" - are you an A V 8 OR too? If so, what do you fly?"
If you are not a whore, you will never get anywhere in this business, lol. Seriously, I have done anything and everything short of prostitution to get jobs or work with certain people. yes, I am an instrument rated pilot and have flown a lot of different airplanes. I had a Skylane when I worked out of Texas that I used to deliver camera packages and service all over the region. I have also done aerial planning and air/air air/ground coordination. Designed and built many different aircraft mounts. The airport is my favorite place.

"7. Where would you guys suggest I start trying to pick up some low level gigs to build experience, pay my dues, etc?"
Shoot music videos for local bands. Get involved with indie shorts (not features). Get some skills of grippery and electric to get yourself on some bigger productions. You will be in the middle of the action (sore and tired from slinging 4/0 cables, maybe), but you will see how a set is managed and how to communicate with a big crew.
 
TIP #5: Something Nate always advocated and to which I strongly agree - try and learn to grade your own footage. As far as learning, nothing could be better than cursing at the idiot who made a bad shot or did a crap job lighting it only to realize it was you. :happy:
 
starcentral said:
TIP #5: Something Nate always advocated and to which I strongly agree - try and learn to grade your own footage. As far as learning, nothing could be better than cursing at the idiot who made a bad shot or did a crap job lighting it only to realize it was you. :happy:
Click to expand...

YES! That allows you to make your learning curve a little more private too.
 
Tip #99. Sell it right now before you lose $20K+ and tons of your life spent learning how to not get work. The chances of you making money with this are VERY, very slim since you don't have a company in place and you don't know what this kind of camera involves. You can't learn the ins and outs of even basic film production without YEARS of exposure and buying a camera like an F55 is like trying to learn to drive by buying a $100K sports car.

Also, you can forget about making movies unless they are little personal projects that you are ok with your family watching on youtube or at your local hotel's conference room. Don't assume you will get anything made that is worth anything to other people... you are in a pool of 100,000+ other guys that are thinking the exact same thing and many of those have years of experience already. The 200+ film festivals in the US are filled to the brim with little movies every year that never, ever make a dime and are not seen by more than 50 people.

Sorry to be blunt but someone needs to be. Sell sell sell!
 
The shutter angle will define how smooth or staccato the footage will look on playback. 180 degrees, ie shutter half open for each frame is supposed to be the smoothest, if you increase the angle towards 360 images can look smeary, decrease the angle, you introduce shutter effect.

Have a look at the following timelapse, the only thing that changes is the shutter speed, from 1/4000th second to 5 seconds (on a 7 second interval), the start of the sequence is heavily shuttered, the end, playback is a lot smoother.

[video]https://vimeo.com/m/44484154[/video]
 
Shoots56 said:
Tip #99. Sell it right now before you lose $20K+ and tons of your life spent learning how to not get work. The chances of you making money with this are VERY, very slim since you don't have a company in place and you don't know what this kind of camera involves. You can't learn the ins and outs of even basic film production without YEARS of exposure and buying a camera like an F55 is like trying to learn to drive by buying a $100K sports car.

Also, you can forget about making movies unless they are little personal projects that you are ok with your family watching on youtube or at your local hotel's conference room. Don't assume you will get anything made that is worth anything to other people... you are in a pool of 100,000+ other guys that are thinking the exact same thing and many of those have years of experience already. The 200+ film festivals in the US are filled to the brim with little movies every year that never, ever make a dime and are not seen by more than 50 people.

Sorry to be blunt but someone needs to be. Sell sell sell!
Click to expand...

But keep in mind that Shoots56 posts some very negative comments in his effort to tell the truth as he sees it. It is his truth, not necessarily everyone's experience/truth.

Truths:

1. The F55 is a high end camera to learn on, but that doesn't mean you can't learn while using it and you WILL know that camera better in the end than someone who just rents the camera once in while.

2. Your own movies or shorts won't make you money at first, probably, but are an excellent way to learn many different aspects of movie making at the same time. If you're only a cameraman you'll only learn what a cameraman knows. Making something that would sell in the third world markets where they aren't quite as critical can be worthwhile. Usually that involves horror, zombies, sex and/or violence. You can make movies that sell that way, I have. Romance and comedy though are really limited for foreign distribution due to cultural difference. The humor that's usually understood overseas is more slapstick. Kids movies sell.

3. Film festivals do not, usually, sell your movies. The big three for sales are AFM, Cannes and (one in Asia that I can't remember right now.) Going there does not sell your movie. It does give you a roladex of contacts but will cost you about $12k. Been there, done that. Worth it? Yes, but it's long term planning. If you have one of the violence, explosion, horror or kids movies you migth sell it there, but usually not. The small film festival awards only give you an "award winning" mark, but a few of those can get someone to look at your movie.

4. Only friends and family watch your movie. This is often true, but it can lead to other things. One friend of mine wrote a script, shot the movie in 24 hours, showed it around and was hired as a writer for the networks. That movie is "Eleven minutes ago" and if you ever get a chance to see it is an excellent example of a low budget sci-fi movie. It follows the Roger Corman quote of "The best special effect is a line of dialog." Study how he did things. When asked how he would make a movie for $10,000 he said "First I'd put $5,000 in my pocket..."

5. Most of us here are likely to never going to get into the bigs in Hollywood. However, Roger Corman can be a shining example. Most of his movies were B movies, a few top of the line movies, but he had a real flair for making money with movies whether they are A or B movies.

6. Story telling and emotions are the most important aspects of a movie. Sound quality is next, though there are some cheats for that like ADR and Audacity. Image quality is usually in 4th place unless you're doing nature/beauty shots for National Geographic, Discovery or the BBC.
 
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I'd sell it and buy an F5. Then with the money I'd saved I'd buy some lights, microphone, a monitor and a dolly or slider. Then you have everything you need to start getting local work. Good luck and welcome to the madness.
 
I for one think jumping right in with a big boy camera could actually be a good thing - if nothing else the financial commitment forces you to give it your all. Plus given the attitudes of the seeming majority of indie producers these days tends towards hiring cameras before hiring the people to run them - having the F55 may well drum up extra work as your getting started.

Plus it's much easier to learn the interplay of frame rates, shutter angles and white balance on a camera like the F55 which permits you easy access and full control over those most important imaging controls.
 
I have been thinking a little about this thread. In a way, I feel like I am looking back only a few years into my own experience. Some of my off-list conversation....

I wrote.....
"I learned the cinema business the hard way (and slowly). When I decided to manufacture things instead, I did not have another 20 years for a learning curve. I gathered all my resources and purchased a CNC milling machine without even knowing how to turn it on or how to put tools in it. About two weeks later and a few broken tools....I sold my first camera accessory. I was a junior machinist. I have since grown up to being a real company with 5 axis CNC's running all day long. It has been a VERY painful path with lots of frustrating moments and almost no sleep. Maybe the approach is not so bad. After a little looking back, I did the same thing. Almost everyone told me that being a machinist is a lifetime of experience and learning. If I listened, I would not have the business I have today."

I should be the last one to question some elses wild dreams. In the mid-90's I started a full rental company with absolutely no experience just because I wanted to have cameras and lights. Pain and suffering ensued, but ultimately I found myself with an airplane flying cameras all around the southern US. Not bad. Like Grug pointed out, when you make a financial commitment that is big enough to hurt - it certainly forces you into giving it all you have. As long as you are realistic about process ahead, you have a chance.

On the technical side of the conversation. I completely believe that a "big boy" camera is easier to learn with by far because they are almost always more forgiving. A DSLR 'can' look good, but it has a much narrower band of excellence and requires good input to get good results. A camera in the realm of F55, Alexa, Epic gives you more options to conceal mistakes and non-ideal shooting conditions. Shooting in RAW, for example, allows the DP to pay more attention to the scene than the camera settings. You have to do your homework ahead of time to understand exposure and other tech details, but on the day of the shoot there is less to deal with technically.
 
Thank you everybody, except for Shoots56 (I will deal with you later) - it's nice to get a warm welcome, and to join the community on DVXuser! Thank you for the "first steps" advice, I am listening- and am very thankful for your time. I really do enjoy these "new beginnings" in life, if you really think about it- it's not that often we get a chance to do something completely different. I took the camera out for a test drive and captured a little footage. Nothing special, just some basic images. I can tell that a grip with a record button will be a necessity!!

My next question is about "Cine EL vs Custom" and "YPbPr vs RGB vs Raw". I do not yet have the AXS-R5 (I should have that by next week) - so I can't record in RAW or Cine EL right now, but that got me thinking - I believe YPbPr is component which is much better than just RGB, correct? So for the time being I no no choice but to shoot in "custom" and should be using YPbPr, right? So here comes the question part, When I get the AXS-R5 and want to shoot 4k on that and 1080p on SxS - do I set the system to Cine EL, and the camera will automatically record the 1080p in component? I don't see anything greyed out giving the option for the simultaneous recording.

Shoots56 - I don't know what made you so negative, but it's really a downer. You may see it as being helpful, but it isn't. I didn't come on here asking if I SHOULD get into the business or chase my dreams, that decision was already made. My questions were about how to get started. Why would you ever tell someone to not chase their dreams? I am just going to leave it at that, there is no reason to be negative here-

Everyone else: it has been my experience that equipment does not make a good ANYTHING (picture, movie, etc etc)- it's talent. But like so many of you said, having the right tools can also help a newbie by covering for his mistakes. If my camera only catches 8 stops and I underexpose or overexpose I am boned, but if I have 13 stops latitude and I blow out the highlights I could reign it in a bit in post if I shot in RAW (at least that is how it works in photography) - but all the other features as well. When I started out in Photography I purchased the best camera I could afford and a 50mm F1.2L lens. Many people said that it is a waste.. but you know, the very first time I took pictures I had great results, and when I got better I didn't need to sell the beginner gear to buy pro glass - so in the end it cost me LESS not more. I thought about going with an FS700 first and upgrade to the F55 but It didn't have a global shutter - and after dealing with rolling shutter on the 5D2 and 5D3 I knew that is something I just didn't want to deal with ever again. So it was down to Red and F55 (or film) , and I am not going to lie, Red has some outstanding gear - but there were a few things that I didn't like. With the F55 you can record both HD and 4k at the same time, It seems that Red accessories really add up a lot faster than the Sony - especially when you take into consideration the XQD cards now. I wouldn't mind owning both cameras.. but if you're only going to own one, the F55 just feels like the better choice. Lets face it, Sony is an electronics powerhouse - Fit and finish on the F55 seems so much better than the F3, and that wasn't a bad camera at all!

RX8Pilot - I am a pilot as well, I flew cargo in a Cessna Caravan and King Air 200, then a Canadair Regional Jet CRJ100,200,700 and 900 for Mesa airlines and then flew the Piaggio P180 I & II until I hurt my spine. I thought I sensed a disturbance in the force :)
 
I have a suggestion to help jump-start the learning curve. Take Abel Cine's one day intensive F5/F55 training-- Jan 29 in LA or Feb 12 in NYC. Just one day and only $250. Don't know whether you still have any non-rev benefits but you could find some reasonable flights to either LA or NYC.

http://training.abelcine.com/sony-f5-and-f55-intensive/

You might also consider Abel's on-line Digital Cinema and Digital Technician classes. Lots of good basics and theory.

This thread on the Sony forum should help you get your head around the camera's implementation of YPbPr and RGB.

http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/What-s-the-difference-between-YPbPR-and-RGB-setting/td-p/123813

The Sony forum is also a great place to interact with industry professionals.

But, back to my first point, Abel does some amazing training and it will be well worth your while to spring for course, airfare and maybe a night in a hotel.

By the way, if you take the Feb course in NYC, come in a day early and attend the Mopictive NYC user group which I lead. It will be Tuesday evening Feb 11 and we meet at Abel Cine.

Ned Soltz
 
The F55 is a good choice. It's damn expensive yes, but at least you will be safe a little longer in this lucrative market of 4-5 new cine-cams coming out every year. :)


YPbPr vs RGB vs Raw
First I have no idea why Sony calls it YPbPr since "YPbPr" is the analog version of YCbCr - but for all intents and purposes they are really the same thing. In either case YPbPr (or YCbCr) is a way of encoding the image from the sensor using RGB data. There is some debate as to whether one is better than another but its fair to say that an RGB recorded signal undergoes less processing from the camera recording straight through to the post production workflow. "Most" people record to YPbPr 10-bit 422.

The F55 has many many modes and formats of recording. Some of them are YPbPr, some are RGB, and then there is RAW. To record RAW you need the AXS-R5 RAW recorder. The difference when recording RAW is you are essentially recording image data right off the sensor which has not even been de-bayered yet. On the F5/F55 RAW is also the only format which uses a linear gamma and is recorded in 16-bit. This is quite identical to the workings of the Digital SLR.


CineEI mode
The CineEI mode is a tool to help 'photographers' work with the camera when rating the camera with a different ISO then it is actually set to. This is no different then using a light meter and compensating your readings pretending the camera is not as sensitive as it is. This has the same effect of moving your middle grey point up and down the scale to gain exposure latitude either side of your grey reference point.

It's worth noting that on the Sony F3 the CineEI gain goes both ways up and down but on the F5/F55 the CineEI gain only goes down - there only to help you over-expose your images in 1/2 stop increments.
 
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Regarding your #7, gaining experience:

Go out and shoot. Develop a reel.
Create a fake ad (to demonstrate capability).
Find some actors and shoot something (make up some scenes, etc.).
Participate in a 48 Film Project (or similar) when it comes to you area. I learned a lot.
Consider buying one of Doug Jensen's DVDs on interview lighting. (See B&H, etc). The one using tungsten lighting is slightly more comprehensive, but he has switched to all LED lighting (the second one). With a little practice, this will get you up to speed on the technical aspects of shooting interviews.
If you are looking for work, there's always Craigslist. You will find plenty of people who will pay you $25 for a full day of shooting, providing you supply your own camera. However, you may have to explain why you are using an old-fashioned camera rather than a modern one (DSLR)!!
Find a professional and make them an offer they can't refuse (work for free as an assistant).
 
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