New cinema camera coming very soon: SPARTA
- Thread starter Ooze3d
- Start date
John Caballero
Veteran
Oh the thread is back! I wish both projects the best. We need more innovation and better cameras moving forward. No more greeks battling the Spartans from Spain! LOL!
If your Xserses fullfills all my needs, I will drug the virgin of the temple and make her mumble nonsensical terms and interpret them myself to the "Sparta" leaders- but you have to give me one for free- With every prime set!
VGurcu
Well-known member
I already asked this, but here we go again:
How is this PNG 8 bit recording codec comparable to the oher compressed codecs we are familiar with(MPEG2, AVCHD, AVC-Intra) in terms of compressing, image quality, bitrates, file size etc? Have you run some tests on existing samples?
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
Just an idea, if one of the forum fellows is reading this. A new product rarely appears in this market, so it shouldn't be too much trouble. Before someone is allowed to start a thread in the news section for his/her product or project with links to websites and pricing information, dvxuser could demand a little more info about the project. Under a simple NDA if that is a problem. Its background, a couple of test videos, photos or videos of the prototype or the GUI in operation or something that will prove there is something behind the effort. If I announce a 1000 euro camera or a 100 euro DOF adapter that has it all, I'm probably hurting business for many products on the market, and I don't even have to deliver. Dvxuser would be doing something good for the market and protecting the users from dissapointment or products that might not appear for a very long time.
VGuru, if in camera processing is good, PNG will be 24bit RGB uncompressed, a lot better than uncompressed 8bit 4:4:4 YCbCr, and similar to uncompressed 10bit 4:4:4 YCbCr. There is no comparison to a compressed format.
VGuru, if in camera processing is good, PNG will be 24bit RGB uncompressed, a lot better than uncompressed 8bit 4:4:4 YCbCr, and similar to uncompressed 10bit 4:4:4 YCbCr. There is no comparison to a compressed format.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Sounds kind of protectionist if you ask me.
It's a free market (outside of EU policies, anyway.)
Let the chips fall where they may.
It's a free market (outside of EU policies, anyway.)
Let the chips fall where they may.
John Caballero
Veteran
Red has been announcing, changing, changing and changing Scarlet some more without a final product in sight. If Sparta was announced but it is not ready yet, so be it. AT least we are informed about future choices. Whoever is ready can start selling first. That should be the real goal.
combatentropy
Veteran
Otis has a point. It is a risk that somebody might start a thread here about a make-believe product.
However, I think the moderators would rather do something simpler than gather applications and screen camera tests. I especially doubt they will sign contracts.
A simpler tactic would be to require that News threads be started with a post that holds a link to an article from an established news source. That is mostly how it has been in the past, anyway. Someone posts a link, for example, "Hey check out this CNET article about this cool new battery material . . ."
Now somone might ask, what is "an established news source"? I admit there is some gray area. Some are obvious, like The New York Times or USA Today. Some are obviously not, like a brand-new web site that is only about a single product. I think the moderators can use their own judgment. But if they're looking for criteria, I think we could all agree on these:
- the source has been in publication for at least a year or so
- the source has published several other articles about different video products or techniques
I realize that this would rule out poor SPARTA. And SPARTA is not to blame. They began their thread elsewhere and were encouraged to bring it here. However, the fact is, SPARTA has no product. They're not even taking reservations. I would like to keep tabs on their progress, but their progress does not belong in the News section until they are at least taking orders --- or if they are like RED or Ikonoskop and have released an earlier camera.
Finally, this brings us to a larger topic that DVXUser is going to have to eventually address. Already we have several former no-names who are working on cameras: RED, Ikonoskop, Otis, SPARTA, Elphel. And it is becoming easier and easier to build your own camera. Why, even I got a response from a major designer of image sensors last week. I had emailed them a year ago, asking if they could make a sensor to such-and-such specs. I did not pretend to be anybody but a "Filmmaker." I said I was just curious and was not ready to buy. Well, a year later, suddenly they reply to my email (No I am not building my own camera. As has been already mentioned, there is still a lot of money required.)
My point is, the number of cameras from newcomers will likely increase --- maybe double --- in the next year or so. I would like a section called something like "Community Cameras" with two subsections: One for announcements of works in progress, like SPARTA and Grapsas. The other subsection called simply "Design," where anyone, even if they have no money at all, can hash out ideas for what kind of camera should be made (this is where I would most like to go). Does anyone else agree with me?
However, I think the moderators would rather do something simpler than gather applications and screen camera tests. I especially doubt they will sign contracts.
A simpler tactic would be to require that News threads be started with a post that holds a link to an article from an established news source. That is mostly how it has been in the past, anyway. Someone posts a link, for example, "Hey check out this CNET article about this cool new battery material . . ."
Now somone might ask, what is "an established news source"? I admit there is some gray area. Some are obvious, like The New York Times or USA Today. Some are obviously not, like a brand-new web site that is only about a single product. I think the moderators can use their own judgment. But if they're looking for criteria, I think we could all agree on these:
- the source has been in publication for at least a year or so
- the source has published several other articles about different video products or techniques
I realize that this would rule out poor SPARTA. And SPARTA is not to blame. They began their thread elsewhere and were encouraged to bring it here. However, the fact is, SPARTA has no product. They're not even taking reservations. I would like to keep tabs on their progress, but their progress does not belong in the News section until they are at least taking orders --- or if they are like RED or Ikonoskop and have released an earlier camera.
Finally, this brings us to a larger topic that DVXUser is going to have to eventually address. Already we have several former no-names who are working on cameras: RED, Ikonoskop, Otis, SPARTA, Elphel. And it is becoming easier and easier to build your own camera. Why, even I got a response from a major designer of image sensors last week. I had emailed them a year ago, asking if they could make a sensor to such-and-such specs. I did not pretend to be anybody but a "Filmmaker." I said I was just curious and was not ready to buy. Well, a year later, suddenly they reply to my email (No I am not building my own camera. As has been already mentioned, there is still a lot of money required.)
My point is, the number of cameras from newcomers will likely increase --- maybe double --- in the next year or so. I would like a section called something like "Community Cameras" with two subsections: One for announcements of works in progress, like SPARTA and Grapsas. The other subsection called simply "Design," where anyone, even if they have no money at all, can hash out ideas for what kind of camera should be made (this is where I would most like to go). Does anyone else agree with me?
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Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
Red already has a camera on the market though, so you can expect them to deliver sooner or later. Drama and Sparta are from developers attempting their first digital imaging product. I think any valid project should have no problem with some rules.
I believe these things are important. On the Drama, I never announced pricing or anything that might hurt competition in any way or even included a web site and official documents. Even the pricing estimation I gave is high enough to influence anyone although that could be pretty agressive. The little Drama thread on the New Guys forum was not even started by me and it took months for me to notice. I contacted an admin the other day about my signature because free exposure to a project in development is very close to free advertising which is like taking advantage of the site's hospitality to these projects.
We do get valuable feedback as long as the product is in development but announcing final pricing, links to official marketing material, web site links etc would not be fair to the site without a sponsorship or something that would return something to the site and the community. I think it might be ok for someone with thousands of posts and years on the site like mcgee to do something like that, link to his site or film or whatever, because communicating through the forum supports the forum, but anyone dropping into the news section on his first post perhaps does not deserve that priviledge.
The camera market is very sensitivive, because many filmmakers consider it as no1 in their list, so it can influence their projects. I don't want anyone to keep a film in his drawer in order to wait for my camera, so I try to avoid making it look like a product that is already in the market.
Of course, somebody could get someone else to post the news thread which makes the idea impossible to implement.
I believe these things are important. On the Drama, I never announced pricing or anything that might hurt competition in any way or even included a web site and official documents. Even the pricing estimation I gave is high enough to influence anyone although that could be pretty agressive. The little Drama thread on the New Guys forum was not even started by me and it took months for me to notice. I contacted an admin the other day about my signature because free exposure to a project in development is very close to free advertising which is like taking advantage of the site's hospitality to these projects.
We do get valuable feedback as long as the product is in development but announcing final pricing, links to official marketing material, web site links etc would not be fair to the site without a sponsorship or something that would return something to the site and the community. I think it might be ok for someone with thousands of posts and years on the site like mcgee to do something like that, link to his site or film or whatever, because communicating through the forum supports the forum, but anyone dropping into the news section on his first post perhaps does not deserve that priviledge.
The camera market is very sensitivive, because many filmmakers consider it as no1 in their list, so it can influence their projects. I don't want anyone to keep a film in his drawer in order to wait for my camera, so I try to avoid making it look like a product that is already in the market.
Of course, somebody could get someone else to post the news thread which makes the idea impossible to implement.
Agreed on a Design forum, but with a single thread for simple access to everyone's ideas- maybe this thread could be advertised (forwarded) to camera developers from either the big guns or the new indies. As for the WIP forum, personally I think the New Guys one already works for this... My 2 Cents
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
Good idea. Anyone who spends time in marketing and goes into the trouble of press releases and trade shows is obviously well into development and serious about it.
That does not exclude or bring into disadvantage anyone. If I present a video with the Drama and its GUI in use, the product obvioulsly exists and is close to being sold. Sparta and everybody else can do that.
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
The New Guys forum is kinda mixed because it gets lots of actual new guys presenting themselves. A new forum perhaps?
filmmaker's gang
Carbonite Member
man.. you have your knowledge and attitude.. like it.. they have a website http://www.cineraw.es/ and a pdf.. stand corrected.. two pdfs now.. in spanish and english.. red has their renders.. a webmaster w/ a forum and jj posts.. don't see too much difference unless an incredible but heavy computer w/ a lens called red1
scarlet can change the game.. 35 mm is competition.. not your EU competitor
edit
forgot to mention the crowd of followers.. ehehehehehe
scarlet can change the game.. 35 mm is competition.. not your EU competitor
edit
forgot to mention the crowd of followers.. ehehehehehe
Jason Ramsey
Admin
this thread is for discussion on the development and latest news regarding this camera..
If you aren't here to discuss that, then get out.
Later,
Jason
If you aren't here to discuss that, then get out.
Later,
Jason
filmmaker's gang
Carbonite Member
jason's right... nice avatar btw.. everyone has a place here.. there's a whole market.. only your tech or response on time will count.. we payers wait :beer:
John Caballero
Veteran
We want footage to look at from all this cameras! Sparta, Drama, Scarlet, Epic, even the GH1. That is what we want. Can we get that please?
filmmaker's gang
Carbonite Member
well caballero.. i'd say we want delivery too.. 
John Caballero
Veteran
well caballero.. i'd say we want delivery too..
You are right!
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For now the Sparta will have a basic audio recording option (probably with jack in/out) which can be used either for standard audio recording or as a reference for later sync in post if you want to use pro level sound recorders. The PDF document doesn't say anything about it because it's not yet implemented.
Top quality professional sound recording in camera is planned for a second phase of development.
Top quality professional sound recording in camera is planned for a second phase of development.