New cinema camera coming very soon: SPARTA

timbook2 said:
menacing a lawsuit for the swedish camera´s possible loosing business isnt utter nonsense?

well its all yours :thumbsup:
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In Europe, companies have been forced to remove products and services from bundles, increase their pricing, etc when it was below or near cost and hurting the market and healthy competition. European law is very sensitive to these things.
 
Oh boy! Who cares! Build the freaking things if you can, for whatever they cost and see if, first of all they work and second if you can make a profit. After the cameras are ready, working properly and have a set price, let the market decide. You don't see Panasonic, Canon, or any of the big guys having this mudslinging debacle. No wonder the Japanese took over the camera world. Geez!
 
It doesn't work like that. Before you invest the money (a proxy for the resources and time) to build something, you need to know if you can be in business in the end. Otherwise the money is wasted and better spent elsewhere.

The cost of making it is only a small part of the cost. And building it isn't the issue; nothing we are dealing with is really difficult to build. It is difficult to build and market at a competitive price. For example, at $3700 (the cost of a 5D Mark II kit) the RED Scarlet looks attractive. What about at the $10k price of an EX3 or HPX300. Or the $20k price of an HPX500 or SI2k mini? Would you buy a Prius at $18k? or the $26k MSRP it often has? or the $40k price they project for a Chevy Volt?
 
Panasonic, Canon etc would not produce a camera that cannot make money, so their $10,000 packages are usually compressed 1/3" using vendor specific media and the competition is more or less healthy, that's why they took over the camera world. They don't have to worry about these things. But they do have their share of worries.
 
DavidNJ said:
The cost of making it is only a small part of the cost. And building it isn't the issue; nothing we are dealing with is really difficult to build. It is difficult to build and market at a competitive price.
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Exactly. I believe the project I have at hand can survive in the long term on medium volume sales and marketed directly the end user at a price lower than 10,000 euro. I studied civil engineering with a major that revolved around project and resource management, so this is more or less an informed estimation. That's why I don't understand the business sense of the 4,999 euro proposition. I do know it's directly hurting the preorders of a competitor with a similar product (Ikonoskop) and I don't see that as a good thing in this small market. Ikonoskop have vendor specific media, so they can survive at the 7,000 pricetag, that gives them a little way to move. But a 4,999 euro bundle with open media? I don't see where the profit that will sustain the business comes from on this product. Anyway, we will see how it goes.

Back to work.
 
Can't wait until the Drama and Ikonoskop finally start shipping. I'm very excited about the next generation of digital cinema cameras. Smaller and lighter with at minimum a 2/3"+ imager is what we all want.
 
The spanish people are terrible competitors. See what they did to us, portuguese, their older brothers (yes, Portugal was founded in 1143). Colombo was a portuguese worker till their 'casting'.

Now, if you want to fly from or to the most western part of Europe, you will end to choose Iberia instead TAP (national portuguese airways) -- my most recent choice, their web prices follow the competition pratically on a hourly basis. :shocked:

Recently, Valencia (where this camera business seems to be based) won the America's Cup against a portuguese organisation, despite the Cascais' charm (a well-natured and more suitable and attractive portuguese harbor). Theoretically, apples to oranges but not at the end.

So, be aware! They are perfect on the business. Smart, educated and too much organized. I've worked with them and lived in Madrid more than two months. I can speak by my experience with these damned entrepreneurs. :-)

Moreover, do not forget, the spanish is the 2nd international language and, at least, a spanish speaker (not only the old fellow named Pedro Almodóvar) wins an academy award in each year. ;-)

Last but not least, I wouldn't be surprised if they will ask to the European Comission an extra charge for the RED product arguing its non-european origin. I hope not, though. :laugh: Or as RED customer, I should also demand the 35mm size from you european manufacturers. It does seem the Scarlet shall have a full frame sensor, so...

BTW, their choice on the Sparta name is anything other than funny.
 
!Que viva España then! And Greece! Give us all the cameras you can muster! Band together and fight the Japanese!

!Que viva la revolucion!
 
Otis come on!!!

Otis come on!!!

:beer:

Otis, I never ever ever ever thought you had so much ego. I know you are a well studied person, with an extremely good perspective of the market, and manufacturing processes . I really admire you in many ways, but... There you go continuously giving some bad energy to this project. You know what I mean, don't be a fool not accepting the fact that you are obviously mad, if you are wise and elder in knowledge then teach with good will, not with bad attitude, big ego. Remember Otis, your knowledge in fact, was learned from someone else, and only so little was made from your own experimentation, so it is not entirely yours. (if you know what I mean)

I believe you should be all stressed out, making a project like yours is no game, and you are probably still wondering how the heck this low prices will survive in the long term, and how will the profit emerge in this low cost, high feature camera. The fact here is that IT IS WHAT IT IS, and you should just take care about the present. Some times some one thinks too much, and live wondering the past and the future. Come on Otis, live the present, solve the NOW, co's only now matters, your knowledge of future is way better than others, but remember, ALL PEOPLE DESERVE TO HAVE AN EXPERIENCE, and you right now, believing in your knowledge, have forget that RESPECT and SILENCE is in many ways, a much better teacher .

Be wise, and use no ego . Remember knowledge make us some nasty tricks some times.
 
Jonathan Briceño said:
:beer:

Otis, I never ever ever ever thought you had so much ego. I know you are a well studied person, with an extremely good perspective of the market, and manufacturing processes . I really admire you in many ways, but... There you go continuously giving some bad energy to this project. You know what I mean, don't be a fool not accepting the fact that you are obviously mad, if you are wise and elder in knowledge then teach with good will, not with bad attitude, big ego. Remember Otis, your knowledge in fact, was learned from someone else, and only so little was made from your own experimentation, so it is not entirely yours. (if you know what I mean)

I believe you should be all stressed out, making a project like yours is no game, and you are probably still wondering how the heck this low prices will survive in the long term, and how will the profit emerge in this low cost, high feature camera. The fact here is that IT IS WHAT IT IS, and you should just take care about the present. Some times some one thinks too much, and live wondering the past and the future. Come on Otis, live the present, solve the NOW, co's only now matters, your knowledge of future is way better than others, but remember, ALL PEOPLE DESERVE TO HAVE AN EXPERIENCE, and you right now, believing in your knowledge, have forget that RESPECT and SILENCE is in many ways, a much better teacher .

Be wise, and use no ego . Remember knowledge make us some nasty tricks some times.
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Very nice post! Bravo!
 
Lets not start the self improvement seminars yet guys:) If you have been into big projects or a feature film, you know how the bad karma creeps in. If you work with scientists or artists attempting something that takes full dedication and control, you see lots of big ego at work. I have always been direct and this is how it will always be. I have respect for those who deserve it, not for the sneaky type. You can come to appreciate or you can come to hate it. I will never be a marketing conscious saint and I wil always prefer to deal with customers directly. If it's Socrates vs a chinese philisopher, one could sell more insurance contracts but you know who wins in my book.

We don't have to be close friends. It's just technology and tools. If you look into some of my designs you will certainly not want to go on vacation with the guy that thought of that:)
 
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I thought this thread was suppose to be about a new camera and not a pissing contest between camera manufactures.
 
this thread is getting out of hand... all this personal stuff has got to go... Read the forum guidelines...

Not to mention there are questions about when one begins to cross the line into advertising on this site, which would also be a violation of our forum guidelines.

talking about cameras, and products in development is one thing, but getting aggressive and personal is entirely another.

please don't come and abuse this forum for your own personal motive and/or gain. This is a community.

later,
Jason
 
Hi Jason and hi all,

First of all Jason, thanks for reopening the thread. I really hope you realize it wasn't my intention for it to become anything personal and I did my best to keep it being just what it is: a first announcement about the final steps in the development of a new camera and a place for people interested in it to make questions and find answers. And that's what I want this to be from now on.

Also I want to say that this is the last time I'm going to talk about this, but if anyone has further questions about our business plans or the way a cheaper camera can be developed, sold and still be profitable, just pm me and I'll be happy to give that person the mail address for the man responsible for those matters at Cineraw.

I'm here to answer technical questions about this new camera and that's what I'm going to do from now on.

Thanks.
 
I think this is one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a while haha. That's some aggressive competition if I've ever seen some! I think everyone really needs to calm down and relax a little bit... so what if this camera is being advertised at a lower price.. there's always going to be competition, no need to get all angry about it, trying to bash the other company (whether it's directly, or indirectly), and what not.

Everyone needs to just move on with their life and continue with their own projects, let the final products speak for themselves. It's not like there's anywhere on anyones website stating "HEY LOOK! We're cheaper than this guy's camera" or something like that. All this petty arguing is not helping anyone sell a product, but rather showing maybe there are some confidence issues or something going on...

Sorry, but after reading all 6 pages of this wonderful thread, I had to say something...

PS. I'm very interested to hear more about both the DRAMA and SPARTA. They both sound like very interesting products... it's good to see independant projects of this scale going on.
 
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