New cinema camera coming very soon: SPARTA

Here is an example:

Ikonoskop (or any company) are creating a camera at a 7,000 euro price point and base the entire business on the sales of this product.

The site Ooze3d posted, links to http://www.dinamicam.com , a company specialising on rigging and camera support as far as I can see. If the company decides to bring the product to market at a very low cost and make their profit on bundling support equipment or services of other type, Ikonoskop cannot compete, the effort is lost and they are out of the market with a huge sunk cost. The law can protect Ikonoskop from this happening, and this has happened in the past and some very large corporation were involved (Amazon, Wal-Mart etc).

The best product at the right price is what we are all after. But there are other considerations.
 
i'm with otis on this one. i am tired of the hype, promise and misinformation brought by the scarlet and i don't want another one. otis has been very transparent on his project from the very beginning: no promises, no hype, just pure details of what he is doing. so otis, stop visiting this thread and do some work: FINISH THE DRAMA :smile:
 
Otis,

While I apreciate your contribution to this forum and digital cinema in general, you've been trying to put our image and our project down from the very first post you made here.

If you know so many things about us, you'll also know the Sparta (formerly BLUEcam) has been under development for a few months now, so there's no point in trying to make people think we were gathering information for our project when I contacted you on March 24th, not a couple of days ago.

The pm I sent you was a personal question and had nothing to do with the Sparta, which has a CCD chosen from the very beginning of the project. I am in fact a fanatic of independent camera projects, hence my curiosity to know about the sensors you tried before choosing the one you're using now. You're free to visit my original post at DVinfo Alternative Imaging Methods subforum if you don't believe me.

Having said all this and, since the Drama and the Sparta are not competing at the same level (just as you said), I invite you to leave this thread and keep on working on your own camera.

Thanks.
 
Otis Grapsas said:
About Sparta, it's not entirely new. It was called Bluecam some time ago, because it was different from Red before it received a greek name.

There is this sample:

http://www.bluecam.es/docs/Bluecam_001.zip
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That's something that's widely known and we're not trying to hide it in any way.

Those samples are a couple of months old, from the time the project was still called BLUEcam.

The project changed and so did the name. The camera is now faster and has more features than it did back in those days. We'll be releasing new samples soon.
 
Hello VGuru, please don't administrate the forum. If you are a member of the development team of the Sparta, please state so.
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To clarify: I am not affiliated with Sparta, or with any other vendors on this forum.

A new thread on this part of the forum should be about products that are near competion, not product ideas. Anything in development can receive all the feedback it needs in another part of the forum, where it is more relevant.
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Otis don't you think it is funny trying to administer the entire DVXUser (by stating what belongs where) while accusing me doing the same thing (for merely suggesting common sense)

One more thing: When you share information 'freely' -regardless of the nature of how you share it-, you take the associated risk/benefit of giving information to competition. Making business without 3 evils (lawyer, marketeer, accountant) is like marrying your high school sweetheart and thinking what a Don Juan you are.
Gotta work now so I can afford wonderful toys you guys will be producing, hopefully soon...
 
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¡Bueno! ¡Felicidades!
Great news about the SPARTA project.
Eagerly awaiting some sample footage from your CCD sensor. Keep up the good work.
 
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Ok, it was not 2 days, it was 9 or 10days. That doesn't change anything. Asking about specific project related information is not a personal question. I would never mention anything about a personal question in public. You asked which sensors I tried, why they were good and why not and if I know something larger/better, right? Nothing bad about that, as long as you identify yourself without disguising as an independent user from the DIY community. I even gave you personal information like my email for further discussion. I received no response of course. I'm sorry the answer didn't live up to your expectations! I like independent projects and a low cost version of the Drama without software or an open source version will probably serve as a base for these projects in the future. I like to answer any imaging related questions in detail and care for the individual filmmaker looking for a solution or advice. So I usually spent 20 minutes on a respose, and I would like to know who I'm addressing.

I understand the thinking behind the move though. KAI-02150 is the most difficult CCD I have ever seen and I have seen practically anything on the market. The implementation and processing issues are a large pile when you start working on the output. This should be obvious from the samples we have seen on the net. But trust me, it is capable of results that would put any CCD or CMOS slr to shame, especially in fluorescent and mixed lighting.

It would be nice if we were a little responsible about announcing pricing information when the product is still being developed, the exchange rates are flunctuating and suppliers go in and out of business as we speak. It is nice if your margin is high enough to make the economical situation in the market irrelevant to the price tag, but you assume responsibillity for your actions, just like me and everyone else.

I believe we are already taking advantage of dvxuser's hospitality by getting valuable feedback on our designs, we don't have to start news threads. I will try to return the favour by sponsoring some filmmaking events of competitions through the site in the future.
 
Thanks Jhoe. We're working to put up new samples as soon as we can. We know you'll all be pleased with the results.
 
It's ok Tim. Don't worry. We're working hard to deliver our camera as soon as possible and that's what matters.

I've already explained Otis my previous pm was just personal curiosity. If he doesn't want to believe me that's his problem. It's not worth talking about it any longer.
 
I'd be curious to see the business plan at a US$10k price. Distribution and marketing costs should exceed 50% of the sale price. Add in administrative, development, customer service, warranty, and general liability, I am not sure how a $10k product could cost over $2500 to build and stay in business. That said, given the costs of components, how can you build a camera with broad selection of features and make money in low volumes at that price. In many ways it seems similar to the Silicon Imaging SI2k; they started out talking sub $20k prices however the reality is more of a $20-40k camera. $10k is an HPX300 and EX3 from companies with existing broad multi-product distribution channels and support organizations.

My 2¢
 
DavidNJ said:
I'd be curious to see the business plan at a US$10k price. Distribution and marketing costs should exceed 50% of the sale price. Add in administrative, development, customer service, warranty, and general liability, I am not sure how a $10k product could cost over $2500 to build and stay in business. That said, given the costs of components, how can you build a camera with broad selection of features and make money in low volumes at that price. In many ways it seems similar to the Silicon Imaging SI2k; they started out talking sub $20k prices however the reality is more of a $20-40k camera. $10k is an HPX300 and EX3 from companies with existing broad multi-product distribution channels and support organizations.

My 2¢
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That's like 2 million dollars, not 2 cents:) I think the announced prices show lack of knowledge in business. The prices at 10,000 euro for a full camera are already stressing it. In the 90s, the logical margin for a similar product would be about 400%. These new cameras are probably operating at less than 100% and I'm not very sure about the 5,000 euro one, it looks near cost to me. But remember that these cameras are marketed directly from the manufacturer to the end user. This shaves a large percentage off the final cost. The cameras are also not stocked, they are produced as orders come in. The cash flow is optimal and dead capital is minimised. The marketing costs are minimal and there is no middlemen. You will not see any of the small manufacturers hosting a large event or spending 200,000 euro in the trade shows. The low volumes do contribute to a very high cost. We sometimes pay for components 3x compared to a large manufacturer. The small companies usually consist of less than 10 people, sometimes even less. We are talking about very dedicated individuals that do anything from answering emails to development to registration and keeping the acountant happy and dealing with the machine shop.

I have a friend in a company that manufactures machine vision cameras. Their cameras with a sensor like the one on the Sparta are sold for about 4,000 euro and we are talking about a small box with a data output. Another siilar product of a little higher quality is 6,500 euro. There is no recording or expensive shell to manufacture, or complex user interface, no recording software, mechanics, complex signal processing etc, just a raw uncorrected output. They have been in the market for years and sell thousands of cameras to the goverment, millitary and industrial applications. The company sales are about 60 million dollars and their bottom line is about 2 million dollars. Their entire series is only 4 different lines/platforms. You can bet their hardware and software development costs are nicely distributed (no comparson with the small volumes we are talking here) and they are still operating on a gross margin of perhaps 300%-400% over cost of manufacturing, just to end up making less than 5%. I'm not sure everyone understands the realities behind a project like producing a new camera and the business issue behind such an effort, I'm doing my best to produce an affordable solution, but personally I want a business that can survive in the long term.
 
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