Never put mic on camera?

[jcs]

Sometimes you just need to shoot something quick, and don't need/want to schlep a stand & boom for the mic or deal with a wireless lav (especially when there's a grabby baby attached to the subject). When the camera is close to the subject, mic on camera can work fine (even with DPAF and the not-quiet Canon 24-70 F2.8L II), especially for a simple funny YouTube video:

Camera: C300 II, Mic: Schoeps CMIT 5U, straight in with a Mogami cable. I have Sound Devices and Zoom (F4) gear at home studio. If I need crying baby SFX, the SD (best) or Zoom (decent) would be better, but not needed for this kind of shoot: C300 II preamps are fine. No audio post except normalization (could have dropped treble, done EQ etc., perhaps dynamics to reduce noise etc. (higher-end NR totally not worth it for something this simple, e.g. Izotope RX 6). The lower-end spectral NR tools can sound sketchy unless very carefully tweaked ('the high-frequency crinkles'). Sure, close mic (+ hyper-cardioid) would reduce echo and noise floor... not important here

My current mic stands + booms are super heavy and have legs that act like mischievous octopuses (or tri-puses lol) when moved. Sure, velcro wrap / bags can solve; thinking there's probably a carbon fiber mic boom/stand that will behave when transporting and is also light weight. The Schoeps CMC641 (and Audix SCX-1 HC; our indoor mics) are super light and don't need a heavy mic stand. Maybe there's a way to mount our carbon-fiber boom pool to a light weight stand (along with a water fillable bag to balance- can be filled/emptied on location).

 

[GaryNattrass]

Use camera mic's to capture sound all the time but always aware that I need to be close to the action.

They can also be useful for capturing general fx at large events: https://youtu.be/66oTdtBrAxE

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I sometimes use a Matthew's Merf Mini stand with a boom pole holder. Pretty small and lightweight boom setup. Typically I'll use a beefier light stand (not super heavy duty, not a C-stand), but the Merf Mini can often be good enough to get the job done, with or without a sand bag. I don't know why people often think they need to use a super heavy duty stand and sand bags for a lightweight microphone. I use the Schoeps CMC641 as well.

 

[Alex H.]

Use camera mic's to capture sound all the time but always aware that I need to be close to the action.

They can also be useful for capturing general fx at large events: https://youtu.be/66oTdtBrAxE

I always say that on-camera is the last and worst place to put a mic for dialogue, and it is. That’s not the same as “never do it” because reality is that sometimes a rule can be broken if you know why it’s there to begin with. It’s just not something to make into a regular practice.

This is also an argument for making sure you have a shotgun on top of the camera instead of relying on the built-in stereo mic array that many cameras have, because a shotgun as a failsafe can yield usable (though still not pristine) results in a pinch.

 

[Greg_E]

because a shotgun as a failsafe can yield usable (though still not pristine) results in a pinch.

That's what I was going to say. It's better than nothing, but never as good as proper technique for anything other than incidental B-Roll audio (even then it should be gathered with proper technique).

 

[Rick R]

In post production for docus and such, I use the cam mic a lot for nat sound. For anything else, it usually sucks.

 

[jcs]

I sometimes use a Matthew's Merf Mini stand with a boom pole holder. Pretty small and lightweight boom setup. Typically I'll use a beefier light stand (not super heavy duty, not a C-stand), but the Merf Mini can often be good enough to get the job done, with or without a sand bag. I don't know why people often think they need to use a super heavy duty stand and sand bags for a lightweight microphone. I use the Schoeps CMC641 as well.

Ah cool, I've got a Merf Mini- a Fillex P360EX was riding on it for that shoot (high CRI LED spotlights with modifiers are the future haha (vs. bulky 1x1s etc.)). Slightly lighter (2.2lb vs 2.5lb): https://www.amazon.com/Manfrotto-5001B-74-Inch-Stand-Replaces/dp/B001M4HXB2/ . Like how the legs get super wide and sit low for these kind of stands. I used to race cars and build R/C aircraft- shaving weight everywhere adds up (did the lightweight bike thing for a bit, it's nuts: lighter = more $$$).

Found these: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/885688-REG/Auray_BPH_BOOM_POLE.html , https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3581-REG/Avenger_D200_D200_Grip_Head.html .
Wonder if there's anything lighter... Found this: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283851-REG/Matthews_350584_Minigrip_Head.html . Plastic (about half the weight of aluminum), fragile though. Didn't find any with more exotic materials such as magnesium, carbon fiber, or graphene or carbyne .

Many folks say 'never put a mic on camera'- it will sound bad, with no further explanation. Perhaps best for folks to explain the principles of distance (inverse square law and dB) and relative sound intensity, regarding signal (subject) to noise (everything else), as well as the rejection properties of the mic, e.g how some shotguns have very poor rear rejection, and thus to make sure that there are no extraneous sounds behind the mic, since rejection is pretty much only perpendicular. And thus why mounting from a boom pointing down (or even hidden below point up) is best, unless of course there are extraneous sounds above...

I remember folks saying "don't use a shotgun indoors" and I thought, why not, I've never had a problem. Until that one reverberant room where the shotgun produced completely unusable audio! (phase/reflections caused flange-like effects).

As for capturing nat sound from the camera with a shotgun, I found mid-side works really well (e.g Audio Technica BP4029), since you can effectively use a shotgun source (mono, very directional) and left/right sources of arbitrary width, all done in post. Basically 3 channels with 1 stereo mic! For 3D audio we need 4 channels (e.g. Sennheiser Ambeo), so an external recorder is typically needed. What's amazing about ambisonic recording, is you can output as many channels of audio as you like in post! Mono (any direction), stereo, 5.1, 7.1, 9.2, HRTF (headphones), etc. Maybe I'll do a separate post about ambisonic recording and processing if there's interest.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

The Matthew's stand is considerably more durable/higher capacity than the Manfrotto, so unless you're only putting really light things on it I'd stick with the Matthews since it's not much more weight.

I have a couple Fiilex P180s. Nice lights. Love how small they are.

I think soft panels will have their place for awhile due to not needing to spend extra time adding modifiers, just like Kinos and tungsten Fresnels have worked together for awhile, even though a bright Fresnel can give similar quality of light with modifiers.

When I fly with gear I put all the heavy stuff in my carry-on, so weight isn't an issue since they never weigh my carry-on. Size is an issue, of course. I've fit two or three Merf Mini stands in my carry on with a bunch of other equipment.

 

[jcs]

Yeah the pics of the Manfrotto don't look as solid as the Matthews. Something like a Fiilex with higher power and a mini umbrella would set up pretty fast and pack tiny. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Something like a Fiilex with higher power and a mini umbrella would set up pretty fast and pack tiny. Thanks for the tips.

I have two Practilite 602s which fit that bill and have used that setup while traveling. A bit larger than the Fiilex, but twice as bright, and still much smaller than a panel light. Also good for run n' gun event lighting as it's smaller and lighter than a panel light. Here's a photo of that setup.

Some photos of my traveling setup...

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TwoSenseFilms/photos/?tab=album&album_id=928972187209378

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TwoSenseFilms/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1052120118227917

I fit all of that in a backpack and one carry-on (no checked bags)...

Edelkrone Slider
Glidecam HD4000
Two Practilite Fresnels
Litepanel Astra
2x C100s
Sigma 18-35, Canon 24-105, Tokina 11-20
Hardwired Lav Mic
Senheisser Wireless Lav
On-camera Shotgun Mic
Umbrella
Two Matthews Merf Mini light stands
Laptop
2x Tripods
Softbox w/grid

My mess of a carry-on...

I don't fly with gear often, so I'm sure I could streamline things more if I did it more often. It seems flex panel lights such as the Wescott or Aladdin are the go-to light for those who travel light, so if I traveled more I'd look into getting one or two of those.

 

[jcs]

Yeah, that works. Once you realize sometimes you want a really, big, soft, diffuse light, and then sometimes need lots of light control (tight, hard edges etc.), you realize the 1x1 LEDs aren't so versatile, especially if you need to schlep the gear around. Pretty impressive packing! My day job is software/technology, so I only need to transport camera/audio gear for our own projects/shoots by car.

What shotgun mic is that in pic?

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Shotgun mic is the Sanken CS-3e. Good rejection for loud environments, while also being one of the best indoor shotgun mics. So, I use it for both outside and for noisy indoor interviews, and the Schoeps CMC641 for quiet indoor interviews. Also has more reach with its tighter pattern than the CMC641, so better when you can't get the mic as close.

 

[Publimix]

I never take the microphone from the camera, why should you?
FS7 with audio technica AT875 never leaves camera. I use the hot shoe for sony wireless lavaliers or rode reporter or rode nt3 and have another xlr slot free.

 

[Noiz2]

One of the problems with blanket statements is that they assume everyone else is doing the same kind of work you are doing.

I think a lot of the "never" camp comes from when video got cheap(er) and a lot of low budget "films" started being shot on video. With film you don't really have the option to put the mic on the camera (and it would be a VERY bad idea because of the noise), but the consumer/ prosumer camcorders all had mics on or built in so folks used them.

If you are shooting a home movie it doesn't make a lot of sense to not use the onboard mic. That is one extreme, the other is shooting a narrative film that is headed for the big screen where you would be a fool to use a camera mounted mic.

Pretty much everyone on this list falls between those two extremes. Documentaries/ ENG/ Event Videography often fall (stylistically) closer to home movies, more verie less polish. Narrative films, even low budget ones, need more polish and, in general, have an aesthetic much closer to a big screen film.

Providing your camera is quiet enough and your set up is close enough etc. you can get "good" sounding tracks from a camera mounted mic. But it will be a rare narrative film where that "sound" will work. The reason is not quality, though not many shots in a narrative film would fit the set up requirements, but that the "sound" is wrong. With rare exceptions the "sound" of dialog in a narrative film is "close", even if the characters are far away. You can not get your tracks to sound anything close to what people expect from a TV show or big budget film if you use a camera mounted mic. Even in a setup where you are close enough to get "good" sound your mic will be too far away to get what an audience would expect to hear in a narrative film.

So that is where it gets confusing. Jane Blow wants to shoot her first narrative short and goes on line and sees that Joe Blow says he gets great sound from his camera mounted mic (and doesn't mention that he is doing an "on the street" doc on homelessness). She shoots her short action/ love story epic and it looks great and the acting is fine but it sounds like a home movie. She slathers music everywhere but it now sounds like a home movie with a lot of cheesy music smeared all over and now the dialog is harder to hear. She decides that next time she will spend some money on post sound and all will be good. IF she gets someone who know what they are doing they will tell her that there is really nothing except ADRing the whole thing. If she get someone who knows less they will use all kinds of plugins to try to "fix" it and maybe it's a little better or it sounds like some strange robot did ADR.

And then she posts how one should Never use a camera mounted mic.

As a lot of us have said, the way to make these decisions is to start from the end. What do you want your film to end up sounding like? Pick the work flow that best supports that goal.

Same BTW goes for wireless. It can work for just about anything but it may not be the "sound" you want.

Also you should always assume that the sound you capture is the sound you will end up with. It is possible to "fix" some things to some extent, but you almost always pay a price for that "fix". And all too often the price is not worth the benefit.

 

[ozmorphasis]

I have two Practilite 602s which fit that bill and have used that setup while traveling. A bit larger than the Fiilex, but twice as bright, and still much smaller than a panel light. Also good for run n' gun event lighting as it's smaller and lighter than a panel light. Here's a photo of that setup.

Some photos of my traveling setup...

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TwoSenseFilms/photos/?tab=album&album_id=928972187209378

https://www.facebook.com/pg/TwoSenseFilms/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1052120118227917

I fit all of that in a backpack and one carry-on (no checked bags)...

Edelkrone Slider
Glidecam HD4000
Two Practilite Fresnels
Litepanel Astra
2x C100s
Sigma 18-35, Canon 24-105, Tokina 11-20
Hardwired Lav Mic
Senheisser Wireless Lav
On-camera Shotgun Mic
Umbrella
Two Matthews Merf Mini light stands
Laptop
2x Tripods
Softbox w/grid

My mess of a carry-on...

I don't fly with gear often, so I'm sure I could streamline things more if I did it more often. It seems flex panel lights such as the Wescott or Aladdin are the go-to light for those who travel light, so if I traveled more I'd look into getting one or two of those.

Thanks for sharing all of this Eric. I just ordered the Practilite 602 to help round out my travel kit which now includes the Intellytech LC-160. Just used the Intelllytech last night for the first time. Really nice looking light. Should pack easily. I could use one more compact fresnel for the background.

BTW, the ultraportable Practilite + umbrella + Merf setup is really appealing. I like D-fuse + panel in controlled situations, but at an event when you need to be nimble, I always find the D-fuse a bit too fiddly.

 

[morgan_moore]

Is not a good rule of thumb to have the mic 18in from the source of the noise?
On that basis is would seem that having the mic on the camera could have often work if you are a close in shooter.

 

[Barry_Green]

Whether it's a good idea to have the mic mounted on the camera, or not, depends entirely on where the camera is in relation to the source of the audio.

You want good audio, get the mic as close as possible to the speaker.

You want sucky audio, keep the mic further from the speaker.

Now consider where your camera is, in relation to the speaker. Could you get the mic closer if you took it off the camera? Yes? Then take it off the camera, and move it closer.

 

[IronFilm]

Whether it's a good idea to have the mic mounted on the camera, or not, depends entirely on where the camera is in relation to the source of the audio.

You want good audio, get the mic as close as possible to the speaker.

You want sucky audio, keep the mic further from the speaker.

Now consider where your camera is, in relation to the speaker. Could you get the mic closer if you took it off the camera? Yes? Then take it off the camera, and move it closer.

Very few people want give sound priority over camera!

But sure, if you positioned the mic for the best sound and then place the camera there... you'll get great sound with a camera mounted microphone! ;-)

Anything less than that and you're compromising sound for your camera instead.

Not that a compromise is necessarily always a bad thing, as we're always making a compromise in some form or another (due to other constraints, be it time or money or whatever). But don't try fooling yourself that you're not compromising sound.

 

[jcs]

The First Rule of Film Club is. There are no rules! haha

Lots of good feedback. Now let's turn it around the other way. What is the intent of the sound for the shot? For example, a camera-mounted mic, especially if it's a mid-side stereo or ambisonic (3D/VR) will provide the user with sound from the point of view of the camera. Thus for a first-person shot, as seen from the eyes of the person the camera represents, mic-on-camera provides the right sound. If someone is talking far away, it will sound correct, like they are far away. Walk up to that person, and it sounds like they are closer.

The basic principle is as the mic gets closer to the source, the relative sound of the source becomes dominant, and all the environmental reflections become relatively diminished. As we move the mic further from the source, we begin to pick up reflections, and this radically changes the sound. Human beings are very good as placing sound in 3D based on subtle timing, amplitude, and frequency cues between ears. We take advantage of this when working with HRTFs to create 3D audio for headphones with similar techniques for multi-channel speaker systems. Of course as the mic gets closer to the source, we can turn down the gain, reducing system noise, and also effectively turning down environment noise as the signal (source) to noise (everything else) ratio goes up. If we had a noiseless mic and AD converter, along with an anechoic room, we could record from far away and turn up gain and not worry about system noise. The question is, does the spherical wavefront change significantly with distance, and if so how is the sound altered? In other words, in this anechoic room and noise free capture system, can we get the same sound regardless of mic to source distance?

When we get really close to the mic, we can get the proximity effect, which boosts the low frequencies with directional microphones (omnis aren't affected). Sometimes this sounds good, e.g for VO & singing, sometimes it results in muddiness or boominess. So we can get too close too! haha

The answer to the question of where to mount the mic, is another question: what sound are you trying to create? Understanding the principles is more important than memorizing rules without thinking about it. The First Rule of Film Club is. There are no rules: think!

 

[Noiz2]

Lots of good feedback. Now let's turn it around the other way. What is the intent of the sound for the shot? For example, a camera-mounted mic, especially if it's a mid-side stereo or ambisonic (3D/VR) will provide the user with sound from the point of view of the camera. Thus for a first-person shot, as seen from the eyes of the person the camera represents, mic-on-camera provides the right sound. If someone is talking far away, it will sound correct, like they are far away. Walk up to that person, and it sounds like they are closer.

This kind of goes to one of the first thing new filmmakers get wrong on a narrative film. Your story doesn't take place on a film set, so capturing sound ON your film set is capturing the wrong sounds.

You can shoot a "small room" in the corner of a huge room and the camera won't know, but it will still sound like a huge room.