Netflix Originals camera requirements

Sttratos said:
Your last paragraph is very interesting. I think it's a victory for Arri that they have to be artificially locked out for people to even consider other cameras. Otherwise most of Netflix would be shot on the Alexa as is the case with Hollywood movies. I mean, Sony tries and forces their cameras into DPs if the film is being made by Sony pictures or Sony television. I have seen DPs saying as much on American Cinematographer articles.
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People are used to what they're used to and they don't like to change if they don't need to. I'm sure if they could many DPs would still be shooting film with 11 minute run times, grain and a comparatively low light sensitivity. Cartoni makes a fantastic heavy duty tripod head but most people in LA are so entrenched and used to the O'Connor 2575 that they'd never try the Cartoni even if it was handed to them for free. So yes, they are comfortable with Alexa and don't want to change. Not saying Alexa isn't a worthy camera obviously it is), but other cameras aren't given a chance because many DPs simply aren't interested in trying something different.It's one less thing for them to think about. And if they own that Alexa, one more rental they can charge.
 
Run&Gun said:
Whoa Mitch. I'm on your side here, brother. I was covering tech specs and story. I was trying to illustrate a point, because both movies were shot with Alexa 65's, which cover the bases of 'Alexa' and '4K'.

I get the frustration. It's Netflix's field and their rules. To borrow from a Ron White bit, it's like trying to explain to a dog that likes to kill chickens, not to kill chickens.
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Sorry if I got dramatic.
 
Sttratos said:
I think it's a victory for Arri that they have to be artificially locked out for people to even consider other cameras. Otherwise most of Netflix would be shot on the Alexa as is the case with Hollywood movies.
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DP Andrij Parekh Shoots Netflix’s “13 Reasons Why” with VariCam 35s

During prep, Parekh tested the VariCam 35, Alexa 65, and the Sony F55. One of the main reasons he selected the VariCam 35 was due to the camera’s native 5,000 ISO setting for lowlight shooting. “The sensitivity in the VariCam is quite remarkable,” reveals Parekh. “It was a very clean 5,000 ISO, unlike what you would get out of an Alexa at 5,000.”
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DP Bobby Shore Shoots Netflix’s “Anne with an E” with VariCam 35 cameras

During prep, Shore knew he would have to shoot in 4K because of Netflix’s 4K mandate. He also didn’t have time to perform extensive testing. Luckily a DP friend in Toronto had recently completed a series of tests on Alexa, RED, VariCam 35, Sony F55 and F65, and he shared his footage with Shore. “It was everything I would have tested – candle light, an actor standing against a window with sheers on it – all the elements you’re going to be confronted with when shooting a period piece,” says Shore. “Out of all the cameras, the VariCam felt the closest to the Alexa in terms of dynamic range and color, which was my main point of reference since I know it so well.”
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Mitch Gross said:
With the antiquated contracts in hand, almost all of Hollywood switched over to shooting Genesis and F35 (and a little RED) in one fell swoop. It crushed SAG's efforts and the two unions ended up merging to survive. And with the exception of just a handful of shows, film production for TV was dead. Later, a Tsunami took out Sony's HDCAM SR manufacturing ability for about 8 months and any show that wasn't shooting tapeless switched over (mostly to Alexa) very quickly.
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Thanks for this, Mitch!
A seemingly unconnected political/business event, and a natural event, changing the landscape (as it were) of the business. Huge ramifications, forever.

Now, this being DVXuser, and knowing the nature of some users, could lead to questions challenging the switch to Genesis and F35 ("why not DVX100/QCam/ZCam/SPAMCam?"), and the effects of a tsunami on HDCAM tape ("But why? Doesn't it float? Isn't it waterproof? And if not, why not???").

Funny how and why things change to get us where we are today. Of course, today is very temporary. Tomorrow? That's a whole new specs story... :happy:

And Netflix? Yeah, 4k (and the rest of the specs). That's what they want, that's what they get. Do you argue with the client?

Though evidently, their specs page may not be enough. They may need Mitch shouting from a rooftop "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take your questioning specified specs anymore!!!" :grin:
 
Barry_Green said:
There is one underlying, overarching, undeniable, and undefeatable rule in business: you give the client what they want. Not what you want, what they want. Not what you think is "better" for them; you give them what they want, what they asked for.
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First of all, I doubt Sttratos thinks he will overturn Netflix's decision. There are other reasons to talk about the news than to think you can change it.

Second, I can think of three choices when confronted with a client demand that you disagree with. This applies not only to filmmakers but also to: plumbers, carpenters, graphic designers, composers, dentists, computer programmers, on and on. It is a situation that workers in all fields have had to deal with for thousands of years.

1. Just do it.
2. Refuse. Get fired.
3. Politely argue against it, as hard and as long as you can get away with. Depending on your relationship with the client, this may amount to:

a. A long debate over many months (in the case of a director, screenwriter, and producer on a theatrical movie)
b. 10-60 seconds of polite reasoning and gentle suggestions (in the case of the jobs of most people here)
c. Not at all. You can complain to your family or friends at home or your colleagues on a web forum
​


Obviously it takes some people skills, and if you misjudge how much you can argue, then it's the same result as flatly refusing: you get fired.

But always just exactly going with the first thing suggested by a nontechnical client will quickly lead to a shoddy result and personal hair loss.

I really want to know. Do you think people come here just to get simple answers to a simple questions, like "What's the battery life of the GH4?" People come here, knowingly or not, to build collegial friendships. And they do that by sharing experience. And just like any relationship, they feel better when someone validates their feelings ("I agree, that was a bad experience") or their thoughts ("There is something to your argument, and I see why you might have come to that conclusion.") even if you think it all stems from their own blunder.

I really think this thread would have ended or moved on long ago if y'all had just acknowledged the validity of his points, instead of blowing him off.

Even though I think 4K is utterly unnecessary and provably a waste of everyone's time and money, now and 100 years from now, I try to steer clear from calling names or coming down too hard.

On forums, I'm sure my words still sometimes sound harsher than they would if we were all sitting around face to face, talking at a cafe. But I try to ask questions and stick to measurable facts if I disagree with someone.


 
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combatentropy said:
I really want to know. Do you think people come here just to get simple answers to a simple questions, like "What's the battery life of the GH4?" People come here, knowingly or not, to build collegial friendships. And they do that by sharing experience. And just like any relationship, they feel better when someone validates their feelings ("I agree, that was a bad experience") or their thoughts ("There is something to your argument, and I see why you might have come to that conclusion.") even if you think it all stems from their own blunder.
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Since you asked -- I don't do feelings or emotions, certainly not in a typed internet thing. I do statistics, facts, and figures. I've been accused of being a robot before; in fact one of the April Fools pranks that JDS wanted to do so badly was a "peek into the moderator's section" where the BarryBot was malfunctioning. So yeah, if someone is attempting to have a collegial friendship or otherwise emote, then yeah, that's going to go totally over my head. Probably why my career path has taken me to computer programming and writing technical manuals, and away from guidance counseling...

Do you think people come here just to get simple answers to a simple questions
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No, of course not -- sometimes they want simple answers to complex questions too... :D

Sorry if my brusque absolutist manner has offended some. It is never my intent.
 
Definitely have to agree with keeping it civil and trying to be supportive as much as possible.

Also, combatentropy articulated very well some important business options and decisions.

While I think to some extent these are guidelines that are not absolutely 100% inflexible. Specially with purchasing, as opposed to funding content.

That said, Strattos came into the thread on page 3, quoting Mitch and stating the that he thought Mitch's assessment was wrong...and/or meant that Netflix was stupid for putting out these guidelines...if I understand correctly. Mitch and others were previously responding to many people's dissatisfaction with the document, and by extension, Netflix. And I get it. Specially if all you want to work with is the Alexa and that's your preferred tool...which for many people it is. This throws producers, directors and many DPs for a loop.

And while these are valid feelings, there is also the other side where many people are also less negatively impacted by this and Netflix document...not because the Alexa is not arguably one of the top cameras in the industry, but for several reasons. I can't express all of them, nor do I claim to speak for anyone but myself. But Many people also agree that Alexa isn't the only way to create good content. And for some people it may not even be the best option always. Many great films and shows get made with other cameras, so it's really not the end of the world...as one would believe if they read some of the bqcklash against Netflix.

Don't get me wrong. I think the whole 4K thing is not what makes good content either. And as such, I expect that there would be some leniency for a while. But at the same time, I get why they are trying to set resolution standards for future proofing their business model. They are preparing for their future marketing and sales. They are a business and that's what they are betting on...which is not an artistic decision as much as a business one. But one that they feel makes sense with the art/money cost/benefit assessment.

And the whole Ursa mini vs. Alexa not being included, well that is just semantics because Ursa mini isn't included in there because they think or anyone thinks it's the best camera. It's included because it can deliver on their minimum specs for compression and resolution, and it's cheap as hell to rent so a producer, director and DP in a low budget doc series can potentially opt for the urea mini b cause of the cost/benefit assessment for the show as a whole (image/workflow/crew/budget)...this may be a show where the Alexa or Amira may not even be an option due to either size, crew requirements and price.

I appreciate the thread, even though I'm not upset at Netflix for this and don't see it imposing on my creativity in any major way. My take away from this thread has been that it is forcing many DPs Directors and Producers to have to explore other options because their go to tool is no longer viable for Netflix...so now, if they want to get a job producing, directing or DPing for a Netflix show, which many of us do, they have to learn how to get the images they want either from other tools, or by spending more on the Alexa 65.

I know this sounds like a jab, but it is not meant maliciously. Just for transparency, I'm actually glad that I have explored other cameras and feel comfortable getting good images in other platforms. It has made me versatile and in this situation has made the Netflix Embargo a non issue for me. And don't get me wrong, I love the Alexa, and hope to use them more frequently in my work too! :)
 
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So...an artist could never get Netflix to make a movie like Tangerine, shot on an iPhone 5s.

I still think Netflix is focusing on specs, not content/artistic vision. Put a plastic Holga lens in front of an Alexa65 and you still get mushy crap, technically speaking. I'm from the old school of glass-is-what-counts. Perhaps Netflix is confusing resolution and sharpness?

Minimum dynamic range of a camera? How about lighting the scene? The FS7 is about the only camera in that list that seems like a doc run-n-gun shooter. I guess Netflix won't be producing any cinema vérite?

Just questions. It always bugs me when anyone besides the content creator mandates the use of a specific toolset. Remember 3D?
 
!!!!!WHAT HAS HE EVER DONE!!!!!!!!!!!! sploosh, aghh, mmphhh, gaaaah..... How about The BellBoy and the Playgirls!!!!!!!!

And speaking of bias, how is it this film is not on the AFI 100 list?
 
Paul F said:
Regardless of what you feel about any particular camera and the Netflix list, we can all rest easy knowing Francis Ford Coppola picked the GH2 over the other cameras in the Zacuto shootout.
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Not to drift too far off topic, but I always loved when the 3rd part of that series was released, the post production part. There we got to find out that the GH2 had 900 power windows, while other cameras were pretty much just turned on and delivered as is.

On to the topic. I do understand why Netflix is doing it, from a business standpoint. The reasons makes sense. and I know anytime you have standards, you have to draw boundaries at some point.

But it really does feel silly to go along with the idea that the most revered image quality in cinema somehow isn't good enough.

I also don't think the video/Standard Def/black and white analogies apply. HD has been surpassed but it will never look bad the way SD does. Diminished returns and all of that.
 
Paul F said:
Regardless of what you feel about any particular camera and the Netflix list, we can all rest easy knowing Francis Ford Coppola picked the GH2 over the other cameras in the Zacuto shootout.
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I know you're saying that tongue-in-cheek, but that Zacuto shootout was the biggest farce of a "camera shootout", perpetrated by supposed professionals, anyone has probably ever seen.
 
David_Manning said:
So...an artist could never get Netflix to make a movie like Tangerine, shot on an iPhone 5s.
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No, it means that the artist would have to explain the case to the good people at Netflix as to why the particular project should be shot that way. This is simply a pre-approved list. It doesn't mean that other systems could not be approved, and in fact I can tell you they are all the time when there is a good reason.

I can even tell you about several - gasp - Alexa jobs.
 
Run&Gun said:
I know you're saying that tongue-in-cheek, but that Zacuto shootout was the biggest farce of a "camera shootout", perpetrated by supposed professionals, anyone has probably ever seen.
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Don't get me started on that Zacuto shootout. If you kids think I got my dander up last night, take a look back a few years to some of the stuff I wrote here and elsewhere when this shootout was happening. I was asked to participate and as I learned what it was and wasn't, I was also quite vocal about the premise and execution.
 
David_Manning said:
... Put a plastic Holga lens in front of an Alexa65 and you still get mushy crap, technically speaking...
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David, one word - plastics.

Speaking of which, I wonder why there aren't more plastic - or polymer, if you will - lenses out there. Rodenstock makes some for medium and large format and those are in the $6,000 per prime range. You'd think the polymers would make for an affordable lens set.

Paul F said:
!!!!!WHAT HAS HE EVER DONE!!!!!!!!!!!! sploosh, aghh, mmphhh, gaaaah..... How about The BellBoy and the Playgirls!!!!!!!!

And speaking of bias, how is it this film is not on the AFI 100 list?
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That's because the Academy has a thing against the Germans. Like Uwe Boll.

Mitch Gross said:
Don't get me started on that Zacuto shootout. If you kids think I got my dander up last night, take a look back a few years to some of the stuff I wrote here and elsewhere when this shootout was happening. I was asked to participate and as I learned what it was and wasn't, I was also quite vocal about the premise and execution.
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Links?
 
Eric Coughlin said:
I just looked up his credits and didn't see a single credit in the camera department.
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Plus, I heard that, right before the final vote took place, he had a huge jug of wine in his coat pocket. Probably Ripple. Or a Night Train. Or some other undistinguished brand.

Mitch Gross said:
You'll have to hunt them down for yourself. It's not worth stirring up my bloodpressure for me to look back.
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Low sodium diet. Less pastrami, more gefilte fish.

PS. The Firefox spell check doesn't recognize the word "gefilte". Oi, gevalt.
 
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