Need to fix QT export problem in FCP 7.0.3

lsc9x

Member
My basic problem is this:

My edited sequence plays perfectly in the "project" window in FCP (the playback window on the right), but when I export my sequence to QT movie, the edits are messed up in the exported quick time video.

That's it!

Now, I've spent a lot of time on forums trying to fix this, so let me tell you what i am doing, what I think is wrong, and then hopefully someone can help me fix it.

Let's put aside "capture" issues as well. I have been getting flamed for my "work flow" by pro editors, but I have a lot of good reasons to do things the way I am doing them that I don't want to have to explain here. (See PS)

I have a 45 minute tape of birds feeding in my back yard. Unfortunately most of the footage is useless because it's just waiting for the birds to come into frame. Out of all this I have about 25 shots of birds which amount to about 3 minutes of edited video.

My work flow has been:

1) Capture the whole DV tape at once
2) Mark out the DV starts and stops to divide the captured footage into "actual shots"
3) Select these segments and go Modify/Make Subclip to turn the segments into clips.
4) Drag these clips to the timeline
5) Edit
6) Export sequence

Now, the problem is that my edits are moving on the timeline (because I am cutting video out with the razor tool), but my source video isn't moving, so what is happening is I am getting "editing creep". The first 2 or 3 edits of my exported QT file are fine, but the longer the QT movie runs, the more out of whack my edits get until finally my edits are referencing video I cut out of the timeline before I even started editing.

So, my question:

- Will making each of my subclips independent get rid of this "editing creep" problem?
- If not, what will?

I just want my exported video to match what I have edited and playing correctly in the sequence.

Thanks!

PS: The reason I am importing the whole tape is that I DO want all of the "shots" and I only want to have to play my shot DV video once in the camera to save the camera heads. I'd much rather "edit" in FCP than log and capturing each clip off tape. Moreover, when I go to shoot my motion picture with 1 camera we are going to be doing multiple recordings of each shot (take) because once we move the camera I don't want to have to go back and "match angles" of original shots. By getting all (3, 4, maybe 5) "takes" onto the DV tape into FCP, I can just throw the clips onto the timeline to get a feel for which shot is going to work best. Once a shot has been picked, I can toss the clips I didn't use without altering the source video (master clip). If I need to get a segment back, I can re-analyze the DV file on the HD and just re-create the clip without having to go back to the original DV tape.

[Edit] A couple of other reasons I want to only do 1 full capture of a DV tape and be done with the tape: Timecode breaks (errors) and Dropped frames! I noticed already that if you try and shuffle the tape back and forth or even just play it and rewind it 2 or 3 times you inevitably stretch the DV tape and this results in problems. The last thing I want to have to do is worry about "fixing" DV footage to fix timecode issues and/or dropped frames. Doing 1 capture 1 time with no errors is the best way to go. Once the file is digital, anything short of file corruption or bad editing is going to keep your time code and frames pristine. I thought I better add this because this is a REALLY good reason to work the way I "want to".

I don't know. It all makes sense to me...
 
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DV tape, I assume this is standard definition Mini-DV tape. What version of FCP and OS are you on? What are the specs on your Mac? What is your Scratch Drive configuration? What are your Sequence settings? What exactly are your Export settings, how are you Exporting? Have you tried trashing preference files (Preference Manager from Digital Rebellion dot com for free)?
 
Standard DV

Standard DV

OK here are the specs:

- Standard def Mini-DV
- FCP 7.0.3 on OS X 10.6.7
- i7 27" iMac, 16GB RAM, ATI 4850 HD video with 512MB RAM, 1 TB drive
- Scratch drive is set to my system drive (for work only, I have 3TB external backup drives including 1TB firewire 800) - haven't had any editing or file issues. I mapped the system folders in FCP to a custom folder called "DVX projects" with two sub-folders "system" next to my "projects" folder so that I can back up 1 DVX folder (containing "system" and Projects") and get all of my data backed up at once. I did map all of the system preferences to this folder.
- I have 500GB to work with on the system drive, 7200rpm.
- Sequence settings are 23.89 timeline (I am working with 24pa footage) 720x480, NTSC DV (3:2), aspect NTSC CCIR 601 / DV, 16:9 Anamorphic, editing timebase 23.98. comp is DV /DVCPRO - NTSC, 48kHz audio, 2 channel, 16bit, channel grouped.
- Export settings are "settings: current settings", audio and video, no markers, re-compress frames is off, make movie self contained is checked.
- I have tried to trash preferences with no luck.

I'll be honest with you, I am new to FCP and I am really trying to do something that I thought would be simple and a good way to start learning FCP, but the more I dig into this the more I am realizing just how much I don't know about this program.

In other words, this is probably my fault.

If I just take my imported DV video, as is, without cutting it up or anything and just drop the video segments (or clips) onto my timeline and then I export the sequence, the exported sequence matches the DV footage EXACTLY. (doesn't matter if I use quick time or compressor, the results are the same.)

I had a tape with 25 "shots" on it. I imported the DV footage (as described above) and just dragged the segments to the timeline, added "chapter markers" to it, and exported it via compressor to DVD studio pro, dropped it into a DVD SP project and I had it playing on TV, with all of the chapters working perfectly.

It's only when I started EDITING clips using the razor tool to cut out video I didn't want, and started deleting unwanted footage, and started snapping the edited clips together in the timeline that everything went to hell.

But not really!

The right hand "project window" or whatever it's called IS playing all my edits back correctly EXACTLY the way I want it. It looks great! It sounds right! That's what I want my export to look and play like.

But for whatever reason, FCP is saying "I see what you have playing in the window, but I'm not going to totally ignore that and export something else."

After pouring over the exported footage and analyzing it for hours it looks like this is some kind of time code issue. My exported edits are not "cutting" where I put the play head in the sequence timeline. There is a slight delay or a slight acceleration between where I wanted the cut to happen, and where it actually happens, but moreover, there is also a timeline slippage that is occurring because later edits are way off. So far off that I am exporting footage that I have totally cut out of the sequence timeline completely.

I figured the problem was that I was still referencing the source video time code, so I tried 3 things to "unlock" the clips from the timeline.

- I converted the video "segments" into subclips and then I
- Removed subclip limitations and then
- Made each subclip independent

None of that made a difference, in fact I think that removing sub clip limitations has only compounded the problem.

OK, so I don't get it. I just want to edit like anyone would edit with film:

- Pull in all of your shots (clips) from the camera
- Put the shots on the timeline and start editing, moving, placing cutting etc until the sequence plays right
- Export that

What I want is to be able to do this (my very first video in FCP and first FCP project) without all the hassle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZhLH50CjZQ

This video was a breeze to assemble because I was working with still images and everything in my sequence matched the export EXACTLY. Man, do I want to be able to do the same thing with video!!!!

So, anyway, I hope there is some obscure setting somewhere that's going to help out.

Thanks for your time!

(I'd call Apple, but they want to charge $800 bucks for a year).

I would be willing to pay someone at this point to help set me straight.
 
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Might I suggest you invest in one of the many learning tools available to give you editing training in Final Cut Pro.
This would give you the basic editing knowledge you lack at this point.

Good Luck!

Dave
 
From top left, clockwise, so you can communicate easier here, the windows are: Browser, Viewer, Canvas, Timeline.

FCP is the leading professional editing application on the market today. "Professional", so you do need to take time to learn it. "Apple Pro Training Series: Final Cut Pro 7" by Peachpit press is hands on, you actually "do" the lessons hands-on yourself. The best way to learn.

You can NOT use your OS drive as your Scratch Drive. You MUST have a secondary drive for that. With an iMac that will be a Firewire 800 drive. Do NOT use a FW400 drive. That will solve 90% of problems right there. It'll work usually for short, SD, small projects. But eventually it'll bit you in the rear.

This is because a single hard drive's bandwidth is not sufficient enough to carry all the auidio/video data streams needed for editing, PLUS the data streams needed by the OS and all open applications. Thus, you'll make a folder on your secondary "Scratch Drive" called "Final Cut Pro Documents". Then in FCP, from the Final Cut Pro menu, System Settings, you'll point the Scratch Disk and everything else on that page to that folder. FCP will do the rest.

FYI, ALL drives on all computers of any OS, make, model MUST have at least 15% of their total capacity as free space, minimum. Otherwise you'll see very odd symptoms that usually don't make sense.

When you export, you're going to File > Export > check off Make Self Contained, uncheck Recompress Frames (Cmd+E). Sounds like you're doing that correctly.

FCP assigns new Timecode to clips when you drop them into your Sequence (Timeline window), so timecode is not an issue. All the making clips independent, etc, won't effect what you're seeing here. Go to Digital Rebellion dot com, download the free "Preference Manager", and delete your FCP preferences. That may help, see what that does.
 
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I can't quite wrap my head around your workflow, but considering the simple task your are trying to -- I think you should just redo your edit like this:

Using your master file (which is the file that contains your whole tape), go to each sement and choose an In and Out point. At this stage do not make a subclip, instead simply press F10, which will lay the clip down (from the In to the Out) onto your timeline.

Repeat this In/Out > F10 process for each segment. (Note: it would help you to read up on the F10 (overlay) vs F11 (insert) commands, both can be used) -- Also make sure in your system preferences > Keyboard settings that "Use all F1, F2, etc keys as standard function keys" is enabled. This allows you to use FCP's shortcuts.

This will avoid your subclipping process, which seems redundant in this scenario and is likely also the cause of your problems.
 
F10 is Overwrite edit, there is no Overlay edit. There is an Overlay Menu in the Canvas. Sorry, just being picky. Just for fun:

F9 - Insert
F10 - Overwrite
Shift+F10 - Overwrite with default transition
F11 - Replace
Shift+F11 - Fit To Fill
F12 - Superimpose

Capture whole DV tape, as you do. Run DV Start/Stop Detect as you do. Name those Markers it makes appropriately. Create a new Bin, select all those Markers, drag them to the new Bin. You can edit from those just fine, as they'll be Sub Clips, and will work perfectly. Your output problems are not due to timecode or workflow.

I strongly suggest looking into Apple Authorized Training. You'll spend three intense training days, and walk out with a fully professional, fool proof workflow, and a very solid knowledge of FCP. I've had experienced editors from major cable networks take the class and learn a ton of stuff they didn't know before.
http://training.apple.com/creative/fcp101
 
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QT Export Issue: Fixed

QT Export Issue: Fixed

Hi guys!

PROBLEM SOLVED.

Thanks for all of the feedback. After paying real close attention to detail and reading everyone's input, the most likely culprit for my problem was some kind of "timing" issue or "time code" issue and I finally gave in to the fact that my footage had been imported wrong.

This problem was especially difficult for me to pin down because FCP was reporting that all of my 24pa footage was actually 24pa in the program (23.98 actually). I also knew for a fact that I had imported it correctly with the 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown at 29.97fps capture rate.

After doing a complete reload I decided to just scrap my capture files, double check ALL the capture settings and re-import.

As it turns out, there is an "Advanced" button under AV settings/Capture Presets/2:3:3:2 Advanced preset. You have to have the camera attached, and go into the "advanced settings" button under the capture frame rate. There is a pulldown which you will only see if you "edit" the preset AND have your camera hooked up. In the "advanced" dialog there is a "scan type" drop down.

This "scan type" mode was set to "interlaced" and it needed to be set to "progressive".

That was the only change I made, and now it works. (DOH!)

Trust me when I say that I will NEVER make that mistake again!

Thanks to everyone for their comments and advice, right or wrong. You all helped me learn a lot more than I did a week ago.

Peace!

Louis

PS: Why on Earth would FCP default to "interlaced" scan mode for the 24pa 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown??? Doesn't make any sense to me, but that's how it is set by default. OK, I think I should write Apple about that one. Maybe they have it fixed in FCP X? We'll see.
 
Something isn't right, because the NTSC-DV Advanced Pulldown Removal preset actually should work as is for 24pA footage. I've used it with DX100a's lots and never had to change anything. The scan type should be interlaced, as the footage coming over the FW cable is in fact interlaced, and needs to be "scanned" as such. And your FPS should be 24p, non-drop frame. If it's showing up in your Browser as 29.97 then something isn't matching up somewhere.

What camera are you using? Are you sure you're recording in 24pA mode?
 
Something isn't right, because the NTSC-DV Advanced Pulldown Removal preset actually should work as is for 24pA footage. I've used it with DX100a's lots and never had to change anything. The scan type should be interlaced, as the footage coming over the FW cable is in fact interlaced, and needs to be "scanned" as such. And your FPS should be 24p, non-drop frame. If it's showing up in your Browser as 29.97 then something isn't matching up somewhere.

What camera are you using? Are you sure you're recording in 24pA mode?


24pa. Positive.

Well, maybe I messed something else up then.

I think I can do one more import of 24pa footage before the tape lames out on me. Let me try it, and I'll let you know what happens.

One the previous import, the 24pa footage was forcing the sequence to a 30p setting and that was screwing up the QT export. Once I did another import using progressive, the timecode slip stopped and the edit exported correctly (as far as I can tell.)
 
2nd Fix

2nd Fix

Something isn't right, because the NTSC-DV Advanced Pulldown Removal preset actually should work as is for 24pA footage. I've used it with DX100a's lots and never had to change anything. The scan type should be interlaced, as the footage coming over the FW cable is in fact interlaced, and needs to be "scanned" as such. And your FPS should be 24p, non-drop frame. If it's showing up in your Browser as 29.97 then something isn't matching up somewhere.

What camera are you using? Are you sure you're recording in 24pA mode?

DVX100B is the camera.

Ben, thanks for that clarification! The interlaced scan mode is the correct one, not progressive as I suggested in my last post. The edit with the progressive 24pa import worked fine, as far as I can tell, but I did notice that the second "interlaced" import file is slightly larger than the one I imported at "progressive", so you are correct that interlaced is the correct setting. That makes sense because FCP is supposed to use all the fields to re-assemble the 24 frames after the 2:3:3:2 pulldown. I am losing some image quality doing a 24pa import using "progressive" scan mode, but for this project it doesn't matter because it's going up on You Tube.

I DID finally nail the problem down, and it was the original source tape.

I am coming over from Adobe Premiere, and when you import a tape in Premiere it automatically adjusts the time code to match the tape recordings and also breaks up the footage into individual clips via start/stop detect upon import. I assumed that FCP was "smart" enough to do the same thing, but apparently not. Mixing shots with different frame rates on the same time is a bad idea in FCP.

I think what happened is that there were two 60i shots at the end of my original tape (for slow motion) and somehow importing these two clips along with the 24pa clips changed the timecode of the entire tape capture from 24p to 30p. This made the master clip 30p and that forced the timecode of the main sequence to 30p, which then hosed my edits which were working with 24p footage.

This would certainly explain the "edit creep" in my last project.

What messed me up trying to troubleshoot this is that the 24p footage was still listed as 24p in the properties of each 24pa clip, but were somehow still referencing the master clip at 30p. Even though I did not drag the 60i clips into my 24p timeline, and even though I set the sequence to 24p, I noticed that the sequence kept switching to 30 fps (29.97) no matter what I did.

My original plan was to do two captures, one at 29.97 2:3:3:2 pulldown (and throw away the last two clips), and then a second capture at 60i (29.97 anamorphic standard) to get the 60i footage off the tape.

The only thing I can think of is that FCP somehow gives 29.97 a higher priority on import or export, so if any of your footage is recorded at this speed, the entire timeline for the master clip gets forced to use that time code.

If that's not it, then I literally can't think of anything else it could be. I will accpet this explanation as fact because it certainly makes sense of my problems, fits the numbers exactly, and has taught me how NOT to do some things in FCP. (I'll look stupid if they fix this in FCP X next month... LOL!)

=)

Anyway, I learned 3 things the hard way:

1) Never mix different speed footage on the same tape with FCP. EVER. (Unless you want to do a lot of correction work later) It's not just a bad idea, it can ruin your project.
2) Make sure the camera or capture device is plugged in and turned on before reviewing capture settings (because some settings are only accessible that way) and
3) Double check every capture setting every time

Thanks again folks!

Case closed. (I think...)

PS: Ben, I'll be using 2:3:3:2 pulldown with interlaced scan mode from here on out. Thanks again, man!
 
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