Need to create budget for feature

D

David W. Richardson

Chapelgrove Films
Okay, if there's a better place for me to post this, then let me know.

I've made a number of films -- two features, numerous shorts. Like so many others, I didn't really draft a budget for any of them -- I just made them on whatever money I could pull together, from my own pocket or the pockets of others willing to help. The budget for my films was never determined in advance -- it always ended up being whatever was spent to make the movie. You know how it goes.

But by and large, those films were fairly simple. The most I ever spent on any of them was $10,000.

Now, though, I have a wonderful script for a great romantic comedy feature. It deserves to be done well. I'd love to see it get theatrical release, or even just get made as a Hallmark Channel Movie. To do either of those, it's going to take a lot more money than I will ever have access to, so that means I'm going to have to pitch it to investors. And that means I will need a detailed budget drawn up for the movie.

I've read what I can find online about how to write a film budget, but it's all pretty generic -- "Make a list of what you'll need and then figure out how much it will cost." Yeah, but HOW do you determine everything you're going to need? And HOW do you find out how much each thing will cost?

There are things in this script that will complicate that process. They include:

- Scenes at two different well-attended Scottish festivals, which will require tents, flags, regalia, and lots of background extras and specialized props.
- Multiple scenes on different areas of a cruise ship.
- A scene in the First Class section of a commercial airliner, in flight.
- Scenes inside two different airports - one at a ticket counter, the other at a car rental counter.
- A scene inside a helicopter, in flight.
- Perhaps most difficult to calculate, several scenes at Eilean Donan Castle in Scotland (all exteriors), including a fly-away helicopter shot of two lovers kissing while standing atop a castle turret as the sun sets in the loch behind them.

Now I know the microbudget 'tricks' -- stock footage of the castle, then cut to built sets. Same with the cruise ship. That becomes complicated as well. It needs to look absolutely authentic, and that last shot of the lovers kissing on the castle turret would be hard to pull off. But even if we do some of that, the question still becomes how much does it cost to build a set that looks like the outside of a famous ancient castle? (Because of central elements of the story, there is no substitute for using Eilean Donan Castle.)

So I'm clearly WAY outside my element here, but there's no way I can even talk to a potential investor without a well-developed budget (and business plan) ready to go. Hiring an experienced line producer to come up with a budget would cost thousands of dollars that I just don't have.

So what would you do?
 
If you are looking for serious film investors (who regularly invest in films), then you will need to have a business proposal. That is a specific kind of presentation, with specific rules. The budget part of that is calculated by a line producer specialising in that kind of production. In other words, you need to hire a pro. For low budget indies, the cost of having this done is usually around $2K.

It seems you are aware of this, but perhaps overestimate the cost. If you are approaching pro investors there is no avoiding having this done by the book, and you do need to spend the money.
 
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OldCorpse said:
If you are looking for serious film investors (who regularly invest in films), then you will need to have a business proposal. That is a specific kind of presentation, with specific rules. The budget part of that is calculated by a line producer specialising in that kind of production. In other words, you need to hire a pro. For low budget indies, the cost of having this done is usually around $2K.

It seems you are aware of this, but perhaps overestimate the cost. If you are approaching pro investors there is no avoiding having this done by the book, and you do need to spend the money.
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Well $2K was pretty much in line with what I've been quoted by line producers. For a guy deep in debt, 62 years old, who's been out of work for 3 years and will probably never work again, that kind of money can be hard to come by. No one worth his salt is going to have any interest in doing it on spec or deferred pay, which I totally understand.

So that leaves me with no options then.
 
Have you considered maybe just trying to sell the script if it's that good?
I have my doubts about the success capabilities of a low budget RomCom. Even if it's a good script. To be successful they usually require name actors that people are into at the moment. Which could require even bigger bucks. I also don't see a lot of them hit theaters anymore. They're usually straight to video/Netflix.

I do hope I'm wrong for your sake.
 
roxics said:
Have you considered maybe just trying to sell the script if it's that good?
I have my doubts about the success capabilities of a low budget RomCom. Even if it's a good script. To be successful they usually require name actors that people are into at the moment. Which could require even bigger bucks. I also don't see a lot of them hit theaters anymore. They're usually straight to video/Netflix.

I do hope I'm wrong for your sake.
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Our plan was to follow the model set forth by "My Big Fat Greek Wedding". Done on $5 million. The 'name' actors in it were pretty much people who had been famous, but were no longer in demand -- Michael Constantine, Lainie Kazan, etc. The female lead was virtually unknown, and the male lead was only somewhat known from his recurring role on 'Northern Exposure'. So they were fairly affordable, yet had some degree of star power.

Story about a specific group -- for them it was Greeks, for us it's Scot-Americans. We hope to do as they did and create a groundswell of interest among the Scottish communities in America.

What we need is a Rita Wilson who gets interested and runs with it. :-)
 
roxics said:
Have you considered maybe just trying to sell the script if it's that good?
I have my doubts about the success capabilities of a low budget RomCom. Even if it's a good script. To be successful they usually require name actors that people are into at the moment. Which could require even bigger bucks. I also don't see a lot of them hit theaters anymore. They're usually straight to video/Netflix.

I do hope I'm wrong for your sake.
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And yes, if all else fails we will sell the script. But even getting the script in front of people who could do it justice requires having an agent these days. We approached Tim Allen's production company -- Boxing Cat -- to see if they might be interested in doing it as a TV movie, but they won't accept unsolicited scripts except through established agents. So it's a wall we can't seem to find a way through.
 
There's a good podcast called "Film Specific" that goes into the business/development side of indie film. There's also an accompanying internet forum where people have good discussions about these topics. http://members.filmspecific.com/public/Independent-Film-Case-Studies-Podcasts.cfm

Another good resource is called Tom Kay's Film Production Workshop. He's a UPM who will teach you how to do feature film schedules, and how to break down the script for budgeting. It costs about $300 but if you're serious about film, then it's invaluable. http://filmproductionworkshops.com/

Finally, I'll repost this video from another thread. "The cavalry is not coming." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZeWOAliA6Y

Best of luck!
 
Drew Ott said:
There's a good podcast called "Film Specific" that goes into the business/development side of indie film. There's also an accompanying internet forum where people have good discussions about these topics. http://members.filmspecific.com/public/Independent-Film-Case-Studies-Podcasts.cfm

Another good resource is called Tom Kay's Film Production Workshop. He's a UPM who will teach you how to do feature film schedules, and how to break down the script for budgeting. It costs about $300 but if you're serious about film, then it's invaluable. http://filmproductionworkshops.com/

Finally, I'll repost this video from another thread. "The cavalry is not coming." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZeWOAliA6Y

Best of luck!
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I can do schedules and breakdowns. That's no problem. The problem comes in determining how much everything will cost. Which crew people do I need to take to Scotland? What are the location use fees? What insurance will I need? Where in Scotland do I book a suitable helicopter and pilot for the aerial shots? And how much will that cost? What permits, if any, are needed? What fees? Where do I house and feed my people? The list is long, and that's just for that location.

What will it cost to stage a more or less complete Highland Games festival? How many background extras will I need for that? Wardrobe? Props? Stunt people? And what will it all cost?

I can take a year doing highly detailed research of costs, which will only change. But an experienced line producer can save me a ton of time, money, effort and mistakes.

Or I can take a budget template, say "We need $2 million", then break it down into the various departments and line items -- just at random, not really having any idea which department needs how much -- and pray for the best. That seems like a pretty bad idea, though.
 
How much does it cost to build a set for an airport ticket counter on a sound stage? How much to tear it down? Then how much to build a set for a run-down motel lobby, then tear it down? Then a run-down motel room, then tear it down?

It all becomes mind-boggling at a staggering rate.
 
Pitch it to Hallmark or Lifetime as an original. Attach yourself as a producer, learn how it's done at that level, make the contacts. Let them do all the hard work (and, yes, make all the money); you use it as an opportunity to learn everything you don't know, so you're in an infinitely better position next time.

My Big Fat Greek Wedding is only an appropriate role model to follow if you have Tom Freakin' Hanks and his wife Rita Wilson as your producers. Because that's who MBFGW had. Without them, it doesn't get made, and you're in the same boat. So unless you can get Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson (who, by the way, is Greek), or others of equal caliber on board, then it is highly unrealistic to think that you can follow that same path. If it's got great Scottish elements, and you can convince Sean Connery or Ewan MacGregor or someone like that on board, then maybe there's a shot. Without them, the odds are close to zero.

If you don't have access to resources of that caliber, your best bet is to option the script, then try to sell it to Lifetime, Hallmark, Netflix, Amazon, etc.
 
Barry_Green said:
Pitch it to Hallmark or Lifetime as an original. Attach yourself as a producer, learn how it's done at that level, make the contacts. Let them do all the hard work (and, yes, make all the money); you use it as an opportunity to learn everything you don't know, so you're in an infinitely better position next time.

My Big Fat Greek Wedding is only an appropriate role model to follow if you have Tom Freakin' Hanks and his wife Rita Wilson as your producers. Because that's who MBFGW had. Without them, it doesn't get made, and you're in the same boat. So unless you can get Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson (who, by the way, is Greek), or others of equal caliber on board, then it is highly unrealistic to think that you can follow that same path. If it's got great Scottish elements, and you can convince Sean Connery or Ewan MacGregor or someone like that on board, then maybe there's a shot. Without them, the odds are close to zero.

If you don't have access to resources of that caliber, your best bet is to option the script, then try to sell it to Lifetime, Hallmark, Netflix, Amazon, etc.
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The story of MBFGW was that Rita Wilson was a big fan of Nia Vardalos' work. Rita brought Tom on-board and made the whole thing happen. So that's why I said what I need is a Rita Wilson.

The problem is getting Hallmark, Lifetime, etc. to even read the script. They don't tend to accept unsolicited scripts, as far as I know. I have no significant track record, so landing a decent agent won't be easy. So it seems like a real Catch-22 situation.

But yeah, I'd love it to be a Hallmark or Lifetime original movie.
 
Just go out and get bids. I think the Nashville airport was going to be like 1,200 bucks for a closed ticket counter they never used. So you'll have to check into that where ever your filming at. They'll require the typical insurance.

You'll also have to look into SAG rates. Some times its cheaper to go with a weekly rate for an actor even if they're working 4 to 5 days. You can go with a payroll company to help with workman's comp on actors. Crew you can make them subcontractors, can't think of the right term right now.

Also when you call around don't tell them you're a film shoot. Sometimes people get $ signs in their eyes when they hear the word film.
 
I understand that $2K is a chunk of cash, but how much do you believe in the script? The reasoning is pretty unassailable, but I'll spell it out for illustrative purposes. I have witnessed this several times, including with close personal friends. Someone believes their script is strong. If it really is strong, it will find investors - I know people always doubt this, and fall back on "the world doesn't appreciate", but having been in this business for a long time (including working at a talent agency), I can categorically state, that a deserving script will get made. The only exceptions being pretty rare occurrences, such as the budget required is way too big for the likely market (like a WWII drama centered around the Nazis invading the Soviet Union etc.), - there are these lists of "great unproduced screenplays" and usually you can see the reason why they are unproduced. But the overwhelming case is: a deserving script will get made or at the very least find a buyer - metric tons of undeserving ones do get made, so desperate is the industry... if you got a good one, it'll get made. Here's the rub - the script owner is usually mistaken as to the merits of their script. They believe it's good, when in fact it is not. People lose perspective - I've seen this with close friends, who simply cannot believe when I tell them "it won't work, not good enough". It's hard to have a perspective as a writer even, because you lose objectivity (even happens to me!) - not because you're arrogant, but because you're too close to the material, you need a cold outside eye.

If you truly believe it's good - you submit to pro investors, and that means shelling out the $2K. Sadly, most often nothing comes of it, because you are wrong about the merit of the script - this happened just a year ago to my best friend (yes, he paid the $2K). Obviously, if it really is good, then it gets made and the $2K is a no-brainer investment. I mean, I know $2K is a chunk, but if you put it in a box and knew for sure you'd get $10K back, you'd do it, no? So either you don't believe in your heart that it's absolutely unassailably worth it - in which case you are hoping an investor will buy you a winning lottery ticket with their money, since you'd rather not buy lottery tickets with your own. Or you don't believe a good script will ever find a buyer or get made. How plausible does it strike you that a brilliant script will meet such a dire fate?

Here's one way around having a pro budget made: go to unconventional investors - dentists, friends of family, folks who won't know what a film budget is anyway. In which case you can skip that step and make up a number. You can then slowly with a ton of research make a budget for yourself - lots and lots of research... all the questions you ask, have answers, just involve a lot of legwork. And I have to ask at that point: given the amount of time and effort, isn't it worth shelling out the $2K if you are going to make the film yourself? The final way - which you already have experience with - is just getting however much you can and then just basing the budget on that number. If you scrounge $200K together, you make it work for that amount, if it's $50K, you try that. I've seen many such efforts - the results are usually not pretty, though of course exceptions always exist.
 
62 and never work again? I'm older, and I could work full-time if need be, but then I would not have the time and energy to make films. I found a part-time gig teaching something I used to do. Do you have a skill that you have acquired that you could teach? BTW, I lack experience, but $2000 seems low for costing out a project of this scope.
 
David W. Richardson said:
From the FAQ's on the Hallmark website: "It is the Hallmark Channel’s policy not to accept or consider unsolicited ideas, proposals and/or other creative materials (e.g. scripts, treatments, stories, etc.)."
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Well, yes, of course they'll say that. Hallmark probably has dozens and dozens of scripts and ideas of their own. The world is full of loonies who would submit some litterbox filler of a script, and then when Hallmark releases something that's in any way reminiscent of any idea in the loony's litterbox filler script, they'll insist that Hallmark "stole" their idea, and sue. So no, nobody accepts scripts unsolicited. It has to go through an agent that they know, or through someone from a reputable agency.

Option the script so you have the rights to it. Submit it to agents. If it's actually good, the agent will be able to sell it. If it's not good enough, the agent will tell you. If ten agents come back frothing at the mouth to represent it (and, by extension, you), then you know you're in good shape. If no agent takes it, then you walk away, no harm, no foul (other than losing your option fee, but hey, that's the gamble). If the script is brilliant (or, let's rephrase that -- if the script is SELLABLE), they will be able to make a deal in no time with a channel or even take it bigger.

But don't do a thing until you have the rights to the script.
 
Scenes at two different well-attended Scottish festivals, which will require tents, flags, regalia, and lots of background extras and specialized props.
- Multiple scenes on different areas of a cruise ship.
- A scene in the First Class section of a commercial airliner, in flight.
- Scenes inside two different airports - one at a ticket counter, the other at a car rental counter.
- A scene inside a helicopter, in flight.
- Perhaps most difficult to calculate, several scenes at Eilean Donan Castle in Scotland (all exteriors), including a fly-away helicopter shot of two lovers kissing while standing atop a
castle turret as the sun sets in the loch behind them.

Except for the castle I'd say on average 1,500 to 2,500 a day for airport scenes, airplanes scenes, etc.

As I said before call around. Most airports have a staff person you can speak too.

Again a lot has to do where your filming your going to get better deals in a smaller market... but you have to consider travel for you actors and some crew members an find a crew base in the city you're filming at.
 
GaryinCalifornia said:
Except for the castle I'd say on average 1,500 to 2,500 a day for airport scenes, airplanes scenes, etc.

As I said before call around. Most airports have a staff person you can speak too.

Again a lot has to do where your filming your going to get better deals in a smaller market... but you have to consider travel for you actors and some crew members an find a crew base in the city you're filming at.
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I hadn't actually planned to shoot at any airports. My plan was to use stock footage as establishing of an airport, then cut to a pre-built set on a sound stage of the ticket counter or car rental counter. Which should, I would think, make it considerably cheaper. If not, then at least easier, with more control of lighting, ambient sound, camera positions, etc.

So if I go with that plan, then I need to estimate costs of sound stage rental, construction of the set, etc.

The airliner First Class interior will be a different story. There are places where they have airliner interior sets you can shoot on -- found one in L.A. and one in the UK. I would have to find out the cost of renting the set, locate local crew and actors, then transport only one of my cast to that location.
 
It depends on where you are shooting... a sound stage can be a grand a day plus power. Then you have to hire a set designer. Then construction guys. Yes you will have greater control but will it be cheaper is wha you have to determine and when I said airport like I posted earlier I believe I was quoted give or take a few bucks about $1,500 to use a closed section of the Nashville airport. Which included. Ticket counters, baggage claim, so on and so on.
 
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