Need quick advice on mics for short films

makkea

makkea

Member
Hey there!
As you may see, this is my first post here, although I have been reading these forums within the last few months. I have arrived at the conclusion that this community is an enormous source of knowledge :)
I hadn't written before because I could solve all my problems by reading, but audio comes a little more complicated to me, and I need your advice.

First of all, I must explain what's my project. I and some friends are getting in the short filmmaking world, but want to do it good from the start. We have invested a little money and bought a Canon 600D and a 50mm 1.8 lens, tripod, planning on shoulder rig, etc, but that's not what I wanted to talk about. I'm confused with the audio gear, and I'm on a tight budget; I ONLY HAVE 250$ for mic purposes.

As of now, I have a Zoom H4N recently bought. The main reason I choosed this one was because I saw that lots of people had it, so I could get my questions answered in the case I needed help (apart from reading that it was great stuff in quality/price terms). I've already planned to buy a boompole and a shock mount, but I have the problem when it comes to microphones.

Since I started my research about mics, I decided to buy a NTG-2 and to plug it to the H4n. Later I read that this was a bad combo, so now I'm looking for other shotgun mics that work good with this recorders (that's the first point in which I need your help, the choice of the shotgun mic). But now I've read that shotgun mics aren't good for indoors so, and that I should buy a hypercardioid mic. The fact is that I have a Audio Technica AT2020, which is a cheap cardioid micro which costed me around 80EUR (100$) 2 years ago (I bought it for musical purposes). I don't know what to do. Shall I buy a shotgun mic and a hypercardioid mic both cheaper, or use my AT2020 (which is a cardiod, not hypercardioid) and spend the whole 250 in getting a better shotgun mic?

I'm lost!
I would appreciate soooo much your help.

Roger.
 
The AT2020 is a large diaphram mic intended for studio and vocalist use. For regular levels of speech it needs to be about 8 qo 10 inches from the subject's mouth so it will be very difficult to keep it out of frame and get decent results. IMHO it is also way too big and heavy to use on the end of a boom, plus the fact is is a side-address mic makes it difficult for a boom operator to aim even if he did have the gorilla arms it would take to sling it around. There are not any shotguns I'm aware of that are cheaper than the NTG-2 and are worth having. By the way, he length of the film is irrelevant - 5 minute short or 120 minute feature, quality sound is equally important in both and the tools required to capture it will be about the same.
 
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Thanks Steve for your fast answer,

Alright, so now I know that I won't be using my cardioid microphone (at2020). Now, knowing that I have aproximately 250$, what do you think I should do? I'm in need of microphones for covering both indoors and outdoors scenes... Should I buy a shotgun and use it in both situations? Is there any way ot technique to use the NTG-2 indoors? Or should I buy a cheaper shotgun and a cheap hypercardioid?

Thanks again in advance,

Roger
 
You might look at something like the Sennheiser modular systems. You might be able to find one used for your $.

The other way to go, and I have suggested this before, is to get mics that will get you by but be useful later when you upgrade. So for instance CAD makes a cardioid mic for drum overheads that is pretty decent, extremely light and quite small that I have seen go for $50 a pair. Its not the ideal mic, it's cardioid so you will pick up a bit more "room" if you don't get it really close, but that may well be a plus on a super low budget and it make it a bit more forgivable for an inexperienced boom op.

So one of those and the NTG2 and your almost on budget.

If you go on making films you will upgrade to a better mic and the little CAD mics are great as plant mics and for putting "in harms way" when doing FX recording. You can tape them in the wheel well for great tire sounds for that chase and not have to worry too much about them getting trashed.
 
Thanks Noiz2!
So will these cheap mics actually perform better than an NTG-2? (in indoors, obviously)
Cause I've found this video, and I think NTG-2 doesn't sound too bad (maybe it's me who can't see what's good and what's bad)
Thanks in advance.

 
The thing about the NTG-2 is that it does have a slightly lower output, and with recorders like the H4n you don't get as much gain in the pre-amps as with higher-end recorders and mixers. This is why it is generally a poor match for the H4n unless there's a mixer or external pre-amp between the mic and the recorder.

Yes, it's a great mic for the money, but you're going to need a little more support to get what you want out of it with the recorder you have.

Keep in mind also that you're kind of comparing apples and oranges with the different mics mentioned. Compare a shotgun to another shotgun, a cardioid to a cardioid, and a hypercardioid to a hypercardioid. That's really the only way you can make mic comparisons. But the first thing is to establish, if you can only purchase one for now, which type of mic is going to suit your needs the best. THEN you can worry about which make and model.
 
I think the video actually proves that the differences are very small, and in most cases, a little tweaking of HF could sort it out. The continuing advice about never using shotguns inside is not, in my opinion evidenced by the video - because, the subject to mic distance is small. A foot, maybe 18"?

The horrible sound any shotgun produces when it is in a reflective environment only happens when the subject to mic distance becomes closer to the mic to wall distance - and that strange hollow phasey sound.

All the mics in the video I would be happy to use, and confident that with some eq, the results would be quite acceptable.

There is a tonal difference between them all, that's quite normal - but I have never found a microphone that could be labelled as only for use on certain sound sources. Obviously, many are designed for specific jobs, but they can be used on others too. Microphones meant for bass drums, can sound good on other low frequency instruments, and I'ven had vocalists use them because they felt it suited their voices. In the music side where I work most, many drummers swear by Shure SM57s on their snare, but there are many more that can do the job - they're just not considered snare mics. I'd love to own a U87 Neumann. A colleague had one and I used t for years on female vocalists, and when he emigrated, I really missed it (and cannot afford another) - but on trying a few others discovered that the reason I liked it so much was that it was actually colouring the sound in a nice way, and this colouration was being mistaken for quality. Other mics I have are warm, or bright or even harsh - but in the mic box, you can select one to compliment the sound source. I rarely worry about mic output levels, with decent preamps I have never had a problem apart from a pair of old ribbon mics that were 'tired' and just too deaf to be used any longer - these needed the last few degrees of the gain pot - exactly the bit where the hiss and noise burst forth!

The video did reinforce my view that shotguns are not much use for recording musical instruments like this, because their extra 'reach' which is just an illusion due to the narrow polar pattern. In this case, the guitar and voice just sounded out of control - the shotgun giving emphasis to the things in front. Distant guitars usually sound er, distant - but the shotgun just produced something too in your face for me. I think that the change in character, as a sound source goes off axis on a shotgun works on voice, but just sounds odd on an instrument that has a width, and isn't just a point source.
 
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Alex H. said:
The thing about the NTG-2 is that it does have a slightly lower output, and with recorders like the H4n you don't get as much gain in the pre-amps as with higher-end recorders and mixers. This is why it is generally a poor match for the H4n unless there's a mixer or external pre-amp between the mic and the recorder.

Yes, it's a great mic for the money, but you're going to need a little more support to get what you want out of it with the recorder you have.

Keep in mind also that you're kind of comparing apples and oranges with the different mics mentioned. Compare a shotgun to another shotgun, a cardioid to a cardioid, and a hypercardioid to a hypercardioid. That's really the only way you can make mic comparisons. But the first thing is to establish, if you can only purchase one for now, which type of mic is going to suit your needs the best. THEN you can worry about which make and model.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your answer, Alex.

As I've said I have already heard of that issue, but found topics in various forums in which some people said they had never had a problem with that recorder/mic combo. I've also read that instead of the NTG-2 a great alternative is its predecessor, the NTG-1. People say this one does work pretty well with the h4n. Is that true? Would you recommend it to me? And what about the AT875? I've heard it does good work combined with h4n.
And about comparing different kinds of microphone, that's what I'm learning lately! Thought that every pair of mics could be compared, but now I see that there are SO many differences between the different kinds. But I'm still in doubt, I don't know which kind of microphone would handle the best the variety of situations that a normal short movie could envolve (at least indoor and outdoor dialogue). Which one do you think it could be?
Thanks!


paulears said:
I think the video actually proves that the differences are very small, and in most cases, a little tweaking of HF could sort it out. The continuing advice about never using shotguns inside is not, in my opinion evidenced by the video - because, the subject to mic distance is small. A foot, maybe 18"?

The horrible sound any shotgun produces when it is in a reflective environment only happens when the subject to mic distance becomes closer to the mic to wall distance - and that strange hollow phasey sound.

All the mics in the video I would be happy to use, and confident that with some eq, the results would be quite acceptable.

There is a tonal difference between them all, that's quite normal - but I have never found a microphone that could be labelled as only for use on certain sound sources. Obviously, many are designed for specific jobs, but they can be used on others too. Microphones meant for bass drums, can sound good on other low frequency instruments, and I'ven had vocalists use them because they felt it suited their voices. In the music side where I work most, many drummers swear by Shure SM57s on their snare, but there are many more that can do the job - they're just not considered snare mics. I'd love to own a U87 Neumann. A colleague had one and I used t for years on female vocalists, and when he emigrated, I really missed it (and cannot afford another) - but on trying a few others discovered that the reason I liked it so much was that it was actually colouring the sound in a nice way, and this colouration was being mistaken for quality. Other mics I have are warm, or bright or even harsh - but in the mic box, you can select one to compliment the sound source. I rarely worry about mic output levels, with decent preamps I have never had a problem apart from a pair of old ribbon mics that were 'tired' and just too deaf to be used any longer - these needed the last few degrees of the gain pot - exactly the bit where the hiss and noise burst forth!

The video did reinforce my view that shotguns are not much use for recording musical instruments like this, because their extra 'reach' which is just an illusion due to the narrow polar pattern. In this case, the guitar and voice just sounded out of control - the shotgun giving emphasis to the things in front. Distant guitars usually sound er, distant - but the shotgun just produced something to in your face for me. I think that the change in character, as a sound source goes off axis on a shotgun works on voice, but just sounds odd on an instrument that has a width, and isn't just a point source.
Click to expand...

Wow paulears, that was a lot of information! Thanks!
I'll have to read it 2 or 3 times before fully understand everything, but thanks a lot!
 
makkea said:
T...I've also read that instead of the NTG-2 a great alternative is its predecessor, the NTG-1. People say this one does work pretty well with the h4n. ...!
Click to expand...
Just FYI, the NTG-2 is not a successor to the NTG-1. They are "parallel" offerings, actually the same mic. The NTG-1 requires phantom power while the NTG-2 has an internal battery power option as well as accepting phantom. That's the only difference between them.
 
The AT875 is A very decent alternative the the ntg2 for $75 less. It is a bit shorter, so is wider, but delivers a lot of bang for the buck @ $175.

Shotguns can certainly be used in rooms, just not all rooms. If the room has lots of features that break up the sound, you might be ok. If you have four hard walls, you'll be in trouble. The thing you have to realize is that on a limited budget, you are going to have to compromise, no way around it.

Grant
 
A couple of things. First the "test" in the video is really just a how does it sound test. It's not very realistic for production work since you are almost always going to be closer if your booming decently. So all the mics were picking up a lot of bounce. If you got the cardioids in close you would lose most of that. The shotguns probably not so much.

Both benefit a bit from the floor being carpeted so what the mic is aimed at is not reflective. How much thin hallow you get out of the shotgun depends on it's design and how the sound coming in the sides relates to the sound coming in the front. Shotguns assume that the signal you want is coming from in front of the capsule. In a bouncy space some of the signal you want is hitting walls and floor and celling and getting to the side of the mic later than it "should" so that is when you get problems. How bad the problem is depends on exactly where the mic is and what's bouncing in the side. You could be pretty close and have problems or fairly far away and not. It's very placement and environment sensitive. Hypers and cardioids don't care so much about side reflections so they don't generally have this problem. BTW this can also a problem outside if your in a very bouncy space like say an outdoor racquetball court, or a big sewer pipe, under an overpass, etc.

You can use a cardioid or hyper outside and a shotgun inside, it's not a rule but a rule-of-thumb. Generally out side you have wider shots and can't get as close and there is a lot more ambient noise to get in the way, so a tighter pattern helps. Indoors you can have the shotgun problem, and you can usually get in pretty tight, and you have less room to move in so a short mic that doesn't get wonky with side reflections is usually a better choice.
 
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