Need pre/ADC advice. lookin for portable, xlr in, spdif out 24/96...for MT

[Nick Walters]

I thought I'd ask the opinions of everyone here on DVXuser....I also posted this over on taperssection.com :

First Post

Here's what I have:
Tons of various battery power
Azden SGM PD II Mic
Microtrack 2496
Panasonic HVX-200
Arriflex 16bl

So I've been looking around and saw a few cool products referenced in threads, many of which were either USB or firewire computer items which could be used standalone, but a few seemed to either revert to a lower setting when disconnected, needed to be set on a computer then have power continue to them, or they had crappy pres.

I seem to keep checking out less expensive products with high hopes, and eventually keep floating back to the Core Sound Mic2496...although the more expensive the item, the more time it'll take for me to purchase....and it seems that if I'm to spend $600 on the mic2496 I mine as well sell my MT and just plop down a little more cash on a modded pro recorder(Oade HDP2 with HD upgrade looked good)....I'd much rather just have a rig that I invest 200-300 more USD into.

I'll be doing narrative recording for films, so I won't be filling up cards horribly quick, so my ultimate goal is atleast some clean 24/96 recordings....on occasion I may do some short recording for a band or something like that if they ask...but no 2+ hour shows or anything like that. I doubt I'll do Documentary or live event as the sound guy, as I'm usually camera op or AC, but If so I'd prolly run the recorder as much as possible, but mainly depend on outputting a mix to camera....in fact as often as possible I'd prolly have a mix running to the camera as well.....in the case of one man banding it this all might become alot of equipment to carry, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but it does mean that I'd rather not carry around a rack mount item or something ridiculous like that, lol.

So does anyone have any advice? Also have I filled in all the wholes of my situation?...if I've left anything out, let me know and I'll post more info about my situation.....and if I've made any ignorant statements please let me know, as I'm not exactly an audio genius, lol

Second Post

It's been awhile since I posted about this, but hopefully a BUNCH of checks will come in soon for invoices(had alot of folks not sending cash and been riding them lately). I'm thinking of completing my array of sound equipment, as more often then not it's difficult to find a sound guy.....so I mine as well get things going.

I've been getting pretty good sound out of my HVX-200 with the Azden SGM PD-II hooked into her straight, but I'd like to stop being camera AND sound.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. It seems it got me traveling down the right path. All of this equipment so far seems to be minimal though, and not quite able to fill my needs, so I was wondering what you all thought of this possible setup:

Mic/Mics>SD Mixpre>AD20>Microtrack 2496

I would output a Mono mix from the the Mixpre which would also make it.
Mic/Mics>SD Mixpre>HVX-200

In this way I have a redundant audio on the HVX-200 which is already in sync(99.999% of the time), Ability to do tone so that my levels are good, a limiter to save my butt, and I have the ability to either teach someone else to use the equipment and be my sound guy, or the ability to just act as sound guy myself.

Have I missed anything, misunderstood the equipment, or generally stuck my foot in my mouth here? Any advice is VERY MUCH appreciated, and thank you all for your time and expertise.

Third Post

One other thing is that I'm a tad unfamiliar with the AD20 and what exactly it means coupled to the MT 2496. My MT has the option for either 16bit, or 24bit....Will eveything work out in the end with the MT 2496 as my bit bucket?

 

[Alex H.]

Your posts aren't really that clear as to what ends you are trying to achieve. The AD20 is throwing me for a loop... don't know it and can't spec it without a manufacturer. I'm going to assume that it is an Analog>Digital converter like the Core Sound Mic2496. Why are you looking at an A/D converter? That adds another box to the signal chain, which can add noise (since it does have analog circuitry) and adds to the bulk. You MicroTrack

It seems to me that you're over-complicating the signal chain when you have all the parts you need. The MixPre has two sets of outputs: XLR L and R line outs, and 1/8" stereo tape (line-level) out. The MicroTrack has 1/4" line-level ins, and though they are TRS they should auto-sense unbalanced inputs.

For double-system, run the XLRs to your camera. Get a 1/8" TRS>dual 1/4" TS cable and run the tape out from the MixPre to the MicroTrack. You now have a double-system setup and don't even need to run a mono mix from the MixPre (so you can split two mics out for recording).

As for the MicroTrack, you might want something a little more robust. The HD-P2 would be fine, and you wouldn't really need to bother with the modded preamps. Taking the 1/8" tape out from the MixPre to dual RCA would get you line in on the HD-P2. Note that the XLR inputs on the HD-P2 are severely misleading. They are labeled as Mic/Line in, but aren't really. There's a pad switch that you can flip to get a line level signal into the XLR ins, but you're still using the preamps. Tascam screwed up on that one. Aside from that challenge, it's a pretty nice recorder.

The one thing not listed in your setup, which I will assume that you have but will also reinforce the need, is headphones.

And if you aren't really experienced with audio, study up. Get the DVD from Barry, read a few books, learn all you can. You have a pretty good start with the MixPre (I'd get a better shotgun... I'm not a big fan of anything with the Azden name on it).

 

[Nick Walters]

It's the Denecke AD-20....sorry about the confusion

The problem is that the MT's(Microtrack) Pre's are kinda dirty, so I'm kinda trying to skip over them, so in this way I'm not really adding anything to the chain. If I went out of the Mixpre to the MT I would still need to go through the A/D that resides in the MT....by using the AD-20 or a Mic2496 I'm replacing that part of the chain with high quality parts.

This basically turns the MT into a bit bucket....just somplace to store the 0's and 1's spit out over the SPDIF from the AD-20 or Mic2496.

It's the same number of analog hops, just higher quality.

The big difference I guess for me is that I may be able to get higher quality from this setup at a cheaper price. The AD-20 is $325(or Mic2496 is $634), and the Mixpre is $665.

Seeing as I allready have the MT, this means the max I spend to get up and running with the setup I proposed is $1299....that's with a Mic2496. With a HD-P2 I'd have to spend $999 for the HD-P2 and $665 for the Mixpre for a total of $1,664.

I suppose at the end of the day I'm wondering if the extra money spent on an HD-P2 is worth it. It seems to me that these dedicated AD's may be better then the AD's that companies slap inside their recorders...

So I guess I'm really looking for someone to give me their first hand experience on 1. using my proposed system(or something very similar) 2. Using a system like the HD-P2....and which is better.

As for the Mic....one thing at a time

Oh yeah...and my cans are Gemini DJX-05.

 

[Alex H.]

It's the Denecke AD-20....sorry about the confusion

The problem is that the MT's(Microtrack) Pre's are kinda dirty, so I'm kinda trying to skip over them, so in this way I'm not really adding anything to the chain. If I went out of the Mixpre to the MT I would still need to go through the A/D that resides in the MT....by using the AD-20 or a Mic2496 I'm replacing that part of the chain with high quality parts.

Well, if you take the line in on the MicroTrack, you're bypassing the pre-amps. I have a Zoom H4 and the pre-amps are simply awful. However, when I use it as a "bit bucket" by taking mixer's tape out to H4's 1/4" line in, it's is clean and pristine.

I suppose at the end of the day I'm wondering if the extra money spent on an HD-P2 is worth it. It seems to me that these dedicated AD's may be better then the AD's that companies slap inside their recorders...

So I guess I'm really looking for someone to give me their first hand experience on 1. using my proposed system(or something very similar) 2. Using a system like the HD-P2....and which is better.

I don't see an external A/D adding much benefit. The internal converters on portable recorders are just fine.

My system setup has been both similar to your setup (field mixer and handheld recorder, no external A/D) and using a system like the HD-P2 with a field mixer. In fact, I used to use the HD-P2's ancestor, the DA-P1 DAT recorder, and it's A/D conversion was great. The P2 is, in most ways, just a solid-state recorder version of the P1. The only major difference is that the DA-P1 actually had a line-in setting on the XLRs that bypassed the pre-amps.

As for which setup is better, I'd say for ease of operation and for sturdiness for use over time, I'd take something like the HD-P2 over a MicroTrack or Zoom any day. Much better pre-amps in the P2 as well. But, you could be fine short-term with the MicroTrack, giving you an opportunity to save a little more for a better recorder.

And even then, something like a Zoom H4n would serve you better than the MicroTrack and would be a little more flexible for you. The pres are improved from the original H4, but I'd still use the 1/4" line ins. But the biggest advantage is the built-in stereo mic configuration, making the recorder useful for on-the-fly recording of FX and sound beds. And then, when you get to the point where you can afford a bigger recorder like the Tascam or a Fostex FR2 (or better, a Sound Devices), you can hang on to the Zoom as a backup and for the aforementioned sound bed recording.

Oh yeah...and my cans are Gemini DJX-05.

DJ headphones aren't going to give you accurate production monitoring. Sony MDR-7506 headphones are flat and accurate, and are designed for production monitoring. Perhaps if you can trim some budget by eliminating the need for an external D/A you can squeeze a pair of these in.

 

[Nick Walters]

On the headphones: So far I've never really been audio, but only monitored from my HVX with the Gemini's, so in that sense they've served me very well.

I used to have a good pair of cans, and I'm not sure if they were MDR-7506...but they sure looked exactly like 'em. Back then I did some DJ work at a bar, and after someone sat in once the speakers got blown on them

Thanks for clarifying some things on the equipment...I do want to have a good compact system, but I'm not really looking for a full on rig yet, as I'm primarily a camera guy who tends to have trouble finding a sound guy 100% of the time...so my smallish rig will be a backup.

I'll take everything into consideration and prolly go back and forth between the cheaper and more expensive stuff...and I'll be sure to post about my experiences here once I dive in.