Need help! 35mm DOF vs. VDSLR vs. ???

[kerromac]

Good day, i've been lurking for months but this is my first post...I run a small video production company that does mostly music videos and TV commercials in Jamaica. We have a Sony V1 and an EX1. Basic setups...We have 2 Mac Book Pros and a 20" iMac all with FCP 6. The iMac also has CS4 production. We have a sony M15au deck, a DIY crane and a Lowel lightkit with 4 heads.

I have $6500 lying around and was ready to blow it on a DOF adapter and some Zeiss lenses [SGBlade or M2E] but I am concerned about technical issues and geting them fixed...and now i've seen some awesome VDSLR footage and i am divided.

Being in Jamaica means that an adapter problem puts it out of commission for weeks and is expensive to ship...I love the shallow DOF look and the softening of the subject as I find the EX1 to be very sharp, but I am aware that the 35mm adpater revolution may be on its last legs and that is also a concern. My backgroud is in still photography/ graphic design [which i am still passionate about] and I don't own a proper DSLR...so the VDSLR's interest me greatly. I am aware of some limitations and imaging issues such as moire and CA.

I know there are some who will say just pick a direction, dive in and start shooting, which i agree with...its the workman and not the tools ATEOTD.

I am also aware that I could just spend the dough on grip equip such as dollies and car mounts and more lights, and that is also an option...

jus need opinions, i've been doing weeks of research and have come no closer to a decision...

 

[William_Robinette]

I am also aware that I could just spend the dough on grip equip such as dollies and car mounts and more lights, and that is also an option...

Well lit EX1 footage will blow the doors off a VDSLR and day of the week and twice on Sundays. This is the route I would take.

 

[kerromac]

thanks for the quick reply...

I am leaning that way, i think better lit shots with more interesting angles and motions trumps DOF but i still can't get over the beauty of the images i've seen with the DOF adapters and the V1/ EX1...maybe i'll wait until DOf adapters fall dramatically in price and buy 3 of them so problems don't halt projects completely.

 

[Cassius]

You'll need lighting and sound equipment no matter which route you go. So get that first. Eventually there may be an HDSLR that doesn't have the problems our current crop does, and eventually decent 35mm adapters may come down in price. There's no rush, and you still have tricks available to minimize depth of field with your camera. I do own a GH1, but I also miss my HVX very much and would have both if I could afford it. Which may be another option for you.

 

[Bobonli]

Use the search function. This question was discussed about a month ago, probably on the next page or two of the forum.

You are not going to realize the overall image quality of your Sony gear with a DSLR. Two different animals altogether. If video is your primary intention, use the best foundational tool you can: your Sony cams.

I have the Shoot35 Blade. It's wonderful. It also takes time to set up and requires rails etc. More often than not, I do not use it since most of my projects are last minute, I don't work with pro actors and so blocking off shots for critical focus is nearly impossible. If you are able to control your environment, you can get a lot of good use out of it.

If I had to do it over now, I'd pass on the adapter and buy lighting gear and a hypercard mic to boom with. I'm just now acquiring lights and I should have done that first. Dont get me wrong, I like the adapter and the DOF tinkering I can achieve, but it adds bulk and (a little) complexity that more often than not I'd rather not deal with.

I have no interest in the DSLRs until they mature a bit. Moire, aliasing, codecs, medicore audio....blah! By the time you're done adding attachments to overcome the shortcomings, you're back up near the price of an EX-1!

 

[david_p]

hi kerromac,

i own an EX1, HMC150 & the 5DmkII. i come from a photogrphay background like yourself. well invested in canon and nikon DSLR gear.

here is what ill say. in a "lab" the EX1 will smoke any DSLR as far as actual resolution. plus you wont have near the "potential" aliasing issues.

in real world usage though (for me) and especially doing music videos where (for me) artfullness is more important than "lab" test results, then i would strongly consider a DSLR. plus i can say that with all of my shooting so far i have yet to have a shot destroyed by the aliasing like we have seen posted many times on these forums. not saying that it wont ever show up. it is something you have to be very aware of though...especially if wont have a chance to reshoot the bad clip.

the doors that will open *could* be quite dramatic as far as the "possibilities & options".

a 35mm adaptor is large and clunky. you are stuck on a rail system....heavy and large. not a problem for some...for me it is. there is some light loss (1-1.5 stops?) on almost all except maybe the letus if im correct. someone feel free to correct me if im wrong.

ive been using my 5DmkII much more for music videos than the EX1 lately. i still love my EX1 and can still be amazed at the startling resolution when viewing on my 30" display but in the end the "vibe" is coming for me more from my DSLR.

of course i suppose its all personal preference. here is an example of a video i just did that would have been impossible with my EX1 or 150. i had "ONE" day only to shot this, multiple floors and unfriendly logistics were working against me as far as achieving my objective. 14 hours shoot. either i could drag in multiple power generators and hundreds of feet of extension cords with a capable amount of lighting and rigging...plus more crew to get it done in a long day....blah blah...you can see where im going or keep it simple and shoot with my 5DmkII. i was able to get some test footage walking thru one day and showed the management and band the "look" i was getting with the 5DmkII and got the green light from all.

i ended up shooting almost all of the video (clips from the underground) with a 26w fluorescant bulb in a handheld worklight with motorcycle batt in a shoulder pouch manned by an assistant. in some of the shots there was one 100w hanging from the ceiling. the whole video was mostly shot between 3200-6400 & 3 fast lenses. never could afford to go below 3200.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sQfHD_b_E

there is noise. yes. if i was shooting classy perfume commercial would this work...no of course not. ask yourself what kind of work you are doing. any low light shooting? need to have a simpler more discreet rig? budget not always accomodatiing bigger productions with lights and crew? i think DOF adaptors will be history in the near future. doesnt mean that they dont work but rather...now there are alternatives that offer far more than just shallow DOF....like low light abilities, lighter rigs, discreet public shooting...etc. of of course...pretty cheap especially if your already invested in glass.

my advice to you is to...expand your options with a very "different" kind of tool. although this may not hold any water for many but just look at Philip Bloom and what he was using 1-2 years ago vs today. what is he talking about today in almost all of his internet visability. in real world shooting the 5DmkII for example mostly succeeds comfortably for many. offically it doesnt have the credentials of the EX1 but in the end...just get past the pixel peeping and they become a very usable and viable tool with extreme & diverse benefits.

would i sell my EX1 or HMC150 and only have a DSLR. NO. for me they all have their place. for shooting a sporting event or R&G scenarios there is no way i would use my 5DmkII. but in a controlled situation like a music video or documentary the DSLR has its place....at least for me. but im far from alone on this.

so, above i stated the "possibilities & options". right now i couldnt imagine not having a DSLR but little by little i see my EX1 sitting quietly by the side. think of what could be "added" to your arsenal by a very different tool like a DSLR.

{{{EDIT}}} for what its worth...5 months ago i did a "making of" video for a video shoot of a country artist out of nashville. DP: Norman Bonney & director: Roman White were doing this video. i got into a little converation with the guy that owned the rental company (name escapes me at the moment) of all camera gear and had the job reloading film all day, Arri/35mm film. we got to talking about what is hot these days as far as gear rented. answer was...5DmkII, hands down end of story over everything! he couldnt keep them in stock. also he didnt seem overly happy about it either for obvious reasons. times are a changing i think and sometimes pixel peeping only....can be limiting.

good luck to you
david
www.davidprobst.com

gear used on that video
ISO's used: 3200-6400.
Canon lenses used...
135mm 2.0L shot mostly @ 2.0
35mm 1.4L
16-35mmL on all Steadicam clips
Zacuto Zfinder
Steadicam Pilot
DVTEC Multirig Pro

 

[david_p]

Well lit EX1 footage will blow the doors off a VDSLR and day of the week and twice on Sundays. This is the route I would take.

how about...an 8 cylinder car will blow away a 4 cylinder car. i think one should buy an 8 cylinder car. is that the only reason you can find to justify the EX1? to me...also blow away is a bit of an arbitrary statement.

david
www.davidprobst.com

 

[William_Robinette]

how about...an 8 cylinder car will blow away a 4 cylinder car. i think one should buy an 8 cylinder car. is that the only reason you can find to justify the EX1? to me...also blow away is a bit of an arbitrary statement.

No, but I am not going to type out a list of reasons why an EX1 is a better tool in the overwhelming majority of situations then a VDSLR because it has been typed up an incredible amount of times already. Look at practically any other thread on any of their sub-forums.

I would pose to you the reverse. What makes the VDSLR a better choice then shooting a well lit scene with an EX1?

The "vibe" as you say? Equivalent to the sex appeal people have been talking about since they first came out? Pretty arbitrary as well.

I'll give you weight and stealth. Although if you are a production company these are things less important then if one is a penny pinching indie shooter.

Anything else? Maybe if you are shooting wider then 31mm and need the lenses (and that is full frame 31mm).

They have their place for sure. And after you have a good stable of production equipment I would say ya, drop a bunch of cash into a system and have a blast. If you are a fledgling production company with a DIY crane and a 4 head Lowel kit that already has two cameras and an editing set up it doesn't seem like the wisest investment in the short term.

 

[david_p]

No, but I am not going to type out a list of reasons why an EX1 is a better tool in the overwhelming majority of situations then a VDSLR because it has been typed up an incredible amount of times already. Look at practically any other thread on any of their sub-forums.

I would pose to you the reverse. What makes the VDSLR a better choice then shooting a well lit scene with an EX1?

The "vibe" as you say? Equivalent to the sex appeal people have been talking about since they first came out? Pretty arbitrary as well.

I'll give you weight and stealth. Although if you are a production company these are things less important then if one is a penny pinching indie shooter.

Anything else? Maybe if you are shooting wider then 31mm and need the lenses (and that is full frame 31mm).

They have their place for sure. And after you have a good stable of production equipment I would say ya, drop a bunch of cash into a system and have a blast. If you are a fledgling production company with a DIY crane and a 4 head Lowel kit that already has two cameras and an editing set up it doesn't seem like the wisest investment in the short term.

i am fully aware of the strong points of the EX1 as i know you are and i for one love what the EX1 is capable of....but....there is more out there than just the EX1?

the OP already has an EX1 plus another standard video camera. i wasnt suggesting that he get rid of them...only add to his toolset. he has $6,500 to spend to upgrade his "toolbox"....hmm?

also, i didnt gather that the OP was a big production company with his two listed video cameras. did you? so dont bother to make a comment when it seemed rather obvious that he is building and coming from a somewhat conservative place with the computers and cameras he listed.

before i go into more detail further down your comment about the "sex appeal people have been talking about since they first came out" pretty much sums up your very closed mind. please can you at least try to make a reasonable argument in your favor.

onto what the OP was inquiring about.....
he was specifically asking about and considering a VDSLR wasnt he?

he said he shoots music videos right?

many if not most music videos try to be synonomous with that "film look" and not that "video look" right?

he stated that he wants the shallow DOF look right?

he stated strong apprehensions about 35mm adaptors ***specifically*** with a concern for repairs issues because of his location right?...to the point of buying *3* of them when the pricing drop right?

if you couldnt tell by his writing that he is very much intrigued with what shallow DOF does when he looks at it right? oops that might be that sex appeal thing...?

well i have to break the news to you but a significant part of **that VIBE** i mentioned is exactly that...SHALLOW DOF and he wants it or at least there is an allure.

thats what the vast majority of indie film guys have sought out for all time. the holy grail! obviously not for you but yes for others.

maybe you didnt read my reasons *for* a VDSLR i guess. you seem to lazy to write much but i will anyway...
far superior low light shooting. your answer is to add more light. what if you cant or budget or time doesnt allow then what...skip the gig i guess? oops my competitor can shoot it with his cheap D90 but i will have to pass?

small form factor. able to pull off lots of location stuff without a permit that would be much tougher with an EX1/35mm adaptor and largr form factor.

a massive choice of glass. "boutique" lenses & primes that shoot to 1.2 & 1.4 with the best glass from C, N, Leica...etc NO LOSS OF LIGHT becuase of an andaptor.

there are many VDSLR's that he could buy for less than the price of most of the 35mm adaptors. although personally i wouldnt buy the cheapest ones. with his budget he could at least get a 7D or better the 5DmkII.

cheap media vs the hi cost of SxS.

can you really tell me that since philip bloom has been shooting all of his shorts with the 5DmkII/VDSLR's for instance that you can see a notable "difference" in his work compared to the EX1/EX3 with the Letus adaptor? has his work gone to shi* because he isnt using his EX series cams anymore? these cameras in real world usage are not really that far apart once you get past the pixel peeping and are fully capable of taking on certain jobs to merit having them.

your answer to what makes a VDSLR better to shoot in a well lit scene than the EX1? here is a few...
1) shallow DOF in a cheap and small form factor.
2) extensive lens choice plus "fast glass" and not being limited to 2.8 on the EX1 once zoomed in to tele.
3) small for factor enabling to be discreet or portable.

the thing is...what you seemed to miss was that ***the many times*** where a VDSLR could be better than the EX1. also to clarify my argument was that a VDSLR would ****compliment**** the EX1. i have never said **one or the other***. please read!

a very different look being able actually "shoot in a lower light scenario". with the EX1 you almost always need to "feed" it light. your right though that if you give it good light it is very good. i absolutely agree with you.

but...
now my question to you is when you state exactly...... what does "blow away" mean? do you mean on paper? a test chart? ok, ill agree with you on that. in real everyday use...i wont necessarily agree with you on that....except if you are talking "absolute resolution" then i will agree. beyond that though...now it is more vague between the two choices. the test charts all of a sudden have less meaning. now *it does* come down to other things that just the pixel peeping kind of things. art *is* subjective and not absolute. 16mm film has less technically than 35mm doesnt it? maybe we should discount 16mm as having any use or value i suppose.

obviously you dont seem to know what the "vibe" thing is i gather. that vibe thing for me *is* first...anything that helps to **get away from that video look** and a quest for that more filmic thingy...possibly less perfect? less technical? i dont think "vibe" lives in a lab or a test chart. before someone say it...yes i know that the film look isnt all about shallow DOF...blah blah blah...of course it isnt but it is a reasonable part of it and exactly why the 35mm adaptor market was booming for indie/arty kind of video guys. it may not be your cup of tea but lets at least agree that it is big for many people shooting video.

logically the EX1 and a VDSLR are surely different on some things but not all things. my argument i made and am making again (where you failed to make a good detailed argument against me) is.....why not both!!! really...why not...both...i ask? a compliment to the EX1. you know...a Les Paul for heavy rock and a Telecaster for funky stuff. (do you know what those are?) both great...both very different...but...... both guitars! hmmm...both guitars...but...both...different! interesting concept to have variety i think! its really very simple.

please at least make an argument why you totally discount a VDSLR to the OP. based on his original post of questions...can you give him something more? then i guess you are suggesting that his only course it to take a chance on the DOF adaptor? would you suggest that he actually buy....3?
you seem to see absolutely *no value* whatsoever in anything but the EX1? curious, would you make the same statement to philip bloom? i doubt it.

now i dont really care what the OP does. i do wish him the best with his decisions but at least i offered up about 20-30 times more tangibles to simply... "think & consider" than your...
QUOTE..."Well lit EX1 footage will blow the doors off a VDSLR and day of the week and twice on Sundays."

honestly im still trying to figure out what that means and yes, i thought that statement was pompous and trite and i thought that the OP's questions deserved more than that!

please tell my you have more than that?

thanks for your comments and good luck to the OP.

{{{EDIT}}} here is a great example of a project that would be a big stretch and possibly impossible for the EX1 to handle because of the twilight and nightime shooting. perfect example of having an alternative like a 5DmkII that will alow you to "go to work and make some money rather than have to sit it out and let the other guy have it"!

http://theeoscars.com/5dblog/2009/01/voyage-bob-davis/

david
www.davidprobst.com

 

[Chris Light]

someone has $6500 just lying around. THAT part makes my heart skip one or two. please Santa...please bring me those $14 UV/Polarizer filters i asked for....

different strokes, i guess.

 

[William_Robinette]

David,

It seems you just as much for the OP getting a VDSLR as I am for him to look at alternative options. I guess we will have to disagree. There is no need to label me as closed minded. It is a personal attack, unprofessional, and something this board doesn't tolerate.

I've owned a Brevis since they came out and I also own a 7D. If you browse around the forum you will see I am not a "pixel peeper" only concerned with lab tests. I offered my viewpoint on the matter and you have offered yours. This isn't some competition as to who can provide more of an argument one way or another. The only way the OP will really know what solution is best for him is to rent each piece of equipment he is interested in, use it, and make a decision for himself. Anything else is just thoughts from someone hidden behind a message board.

kerromac, I'm sorry this has drifted off topic. Have fun shooting.

 

[david_p]

David,

It seems you just as much for the OP getting a VDSLR as I am for him to look at alternative options. I guess we will have to disagree. There is no need to label me as closed minded. It is a personal attack, unprofessional, and something this board doesn't tolerate.

I've owned a Brevis since they came out and I also own a 7D. If you browse around the forum you will see I am not a "pixel peeper" only concerned with lab tests. I offered my viewpoint on the matter and you have offered yours. This isn't some competition as to who can provide more of an argument one way or another. The only way the OP will really know what solution is best for him is to rent each piece of equipment he is interested in, use it, and make a decision for himself. Anything else is just thoughts from someone hidden behind a message board.

kerromac, I'm sorry this has drifted off topic. Have fun shooting.

your comments are well taken and thanks for taking the time to respond.

EDIT...sorry i was so pi$$y yesterday with you and i apoligize. have some good holidays!

david
www.davidprobst.com

 

[Bobonli]

Quite obviously people are passionate about the gear they use. The most sensible thing to do, Kerromac, is rent or borrow a VDSLR and adapter and see which one you prefer working with.

 

[bimdas]

with 6.5k, why not get an sgblade and a canon 7d? You'll have the best of both worlds and should still have enough left over to get some decent lenses for video use.

 

[kerromac]

with 6.5k, why not get an sgblade and a canon 7d? You'll have the best of both worlds and should still have enough left over to get some decent lenses for video use.

thought of it...but whatever i do i want to make sure that i get enough kit...right now 6.5k isnt enough for SGBlade + VDSLR + rails and and new tripod (to handle the weight) + lenses + etc...nah cutting it too close for me...i have to pay the import taxes out of this 6.5k...and the gov't down here has gone tax crazy!

 

[kerromac]

someone has $6500 just lying around. THAT part makes my heart skip one or two. please Santa...please bring me those $14 UV/Polarizer filters i asked for....

different strokes, i guess.

don't let my choice of words fool you...we worked long and hard for that $$$.

but when all is said and done we have some money sitting in the bank and we have no immediate use for it...so of that money we decided to take 6.5K out and get new equipment...

right now i have firmly decided to buy grip gear (Dana Dolly/ Filmtools car mount kit/ Shape WLB Spider) and CoolLights 575W HMI + LCD panels.

I will wait for the VDSLR's to get better and/or the DOF adapters to get cheaper.

I thank everyone for their opinions though, I have enjoyed being a lurker and learning alot and now that i've posted a few things i hope i can contribute positively to the board.

 

[Huy Vu]

Do let me know how that CL 575w work out for you. I've been eyeing that for a while!

 

[Chris Light]

don't let my choice of words fool you...we worked long and hard for that $$$.

but when all is said and done we have some money sitting in the bank and we have no immediate use for it...so of that money we decided to take 6.5K out and get new equipment...

right now i have firmly decided to buy grip gear (Dana Dolly/ Filmtools car mount kit/ Shape WLB Spider) and CoolLights 575W HMI + LCD panels.

I will wait for the VDSLR's to get better and/or the DOF adapters to get cheaper.

I thank everyone for their opinions though, I have enjoyed being a lurker and learning alot and now that i've posted a few things i hope i can contribute positively to the board.

don't let my words fool you either.

it was just late night sarcasm, as i am not a jealous person. i too work very hard for my money, sounds like you made a great choice!

 

[Bobonli]

don't let my choice of words fool you...we worked long and hard for that $$$.

but when all is said and done we have some money sitting in the bank and we have no immediate use for it...so of that money we decided to take 6.5K out and get new equipment...

right now i have firmly decided to buy grip gear (Dana Dolly/ Filmtools car mount kit/ Shape WLB Spider) and CoolLights 575W HMI + LCD panels.

I will wait for the VDSLR's to get better and/or the DOF adapters to get cheaper.

I thank everyone for their opinions though, I have enjoyed being a lurker and learning alot and now that i've posted a few things i hope i can contribute positively to the board.

A wise decision. I think the grip stuff in virtually ignored when people purchase cameras. Especially lighting and sound. I look at some of my stuff and I'm sad because it could have been lit better or I could have set up a boom to hold the mic rather than use a lav. Oh well!!. Good luck with your gear purchases.

 

[eddavid]

there is no clear winner. The 5d and 7d and soon 1d all look great - better bokah than the DOF adapters and better in low light. The low light thing is huge. These 35mm adapters eat up so much light - it just doesn't make them too practical for doc work or low budget stuff - but it can be done if you're smart and resourceful. The RED ONE is not that great in low light and look what people have done with that camera. It's all a tough decision. The biggest problem for me with the Canon VDSLR is that they look soft when viewed in HD. For web work, it's all fine - but it doesn't really hold up for more than that in my quick opinion. I'm probably going to get a 1D. MacGregor my spirtual DOF God, the man who was the first DOF Philip Bloom is even getting interested in them. But I won't be completely happy with it. I think that's the whole technology lesson - you're never going to be happy with gear - with the limitations it brings - but you can try to get around it and think of what camera is the best tool for the right project. God I would do anything for a sharper image from the VDLR because I am getting really old and tired of the DOF adapters.