Need camera training advice from LA area people

[puredrifting]

Hi all:

I just joined the local union here in LA, ICG600. I have decided to step up my game for landing new clients and projects and have embarked on a training mission, in order to be able to truly exploit all of the features each of the popular lines of cameras have. I own a C100 with a Ninja Blade, I rent C300s and occasionally the C300 MKII, RED Epic, F55, Varicam 35 when a client has a project that warrants it. But when I rent these various cameras, I rarely have the time to actually shoot tests and explore the menus, features and options, it's typically get it to the setting the client has requested and go shoot as I am also dealing with producing sometimes, working on hiring crew, doing the interviews, etc. I don't want to be a DIT or AC for features or TV, I pretty much want to work as an operator/DP in the marketing/promo/EPK/BTS/Doc and high end corporate world, where I already have established clients.

Yesterday, I took the all day C300 MKII training seminar at Canon Hollywood with Suny Behar. It was great, some lecture, in depth about features, the differences between the roll off curves for log, menu and camera setups, advanced metadata management that would be utilized on multicam episodic, how some of the more hidden features of the camera work, how to tweak and adjust the DPAF settings for various scenarios and then we divided into teams and each team shot various assignments that were designed to make us dig deep into the menus and to become more fluid with operating in high pressure, timed situations. It was a great day, well worth my time and I now feel very confident in being able to actually utilize the advanced features of the C300, which formats, gamma and matrix to shoot for different situations, etc. I feel as if I now know the C300 MKII pretty well.

I am interested in finding similar experiences for:

1. The Sony F55 - I have shot with this camera, not the FS7 or FS5. In my arena, the F55 and the FS7 are both used fairly often. I can't afford to rent an F55 package just to play with it, but I possibly could do so with the FS7. Question is, if I learn the F55, will menu, features and setup translate to the FS7? Or is the FS7 "dumbed down" from the complexity of the F55? Does Sony ever offer the same kind of free seminars to explore the finer points of cameras like the FS7 and F55 in SoCal?

2. Same with RED. I have rented and shot the Epic a while ago, have not kept up with the new developments at all, but does Red offer any kind of free or low cost training on their cameras at their studio? Any of you take any RED training that you would recommend?

3. In my work, I would be much more likely to rent the Amira than the Alexa. Is there a good source for hands-on Amira training in LA? I've shot with the Alexa before but had two ACS who pretty much handled everything, I found the camera easy to operate but I do not know the functions, menus and features very well. I shoot BTS on several shows that shoot Alexas and Alexa minis so I have a lot of exposure to being around them in production, but that's pretty different than picking up the package, setting up the camera, etc.

4. Not sure if it is worth training on Varicam 35/Varicam LT? I was at the introduction of the Varicam 35 at Panasonic and while I like the cameras, I don't see them gaining much traction for the shoots I do. Opinions?

 

[emretufekci]

The recommendation I give to people (generally younger trying to break into industry) is to get a job at a rental company.

1-You will access to every piece of gear.
2-You will get to test and build every component.
3-You will meet DP's, AC...etc and mine their knowledge.

I do not know where you are in your career to see if that would be an option for you it may save you money and even help you earn money while you get exposure to the systems.

 

[puredrifting]

Hi Emre:

Thanks for the advice but I am far from young, have been DPing since the early 90s, and with kids in college and multiple mortgages, I need to make a lot more than I could make working at a rental house. If I was young, that could be a great plan but I am also seeking opinion and experience that I often get from independent consultants who are hired by the various manufacturers as well, about gamma curves, differences bvetween the matrix settings and how they relate to color space, the pluses and minuses of each system and it's competition, the finer points. I agree with you, if I merely wanted to learn about how the menus work, I would just look up the manuals and or rent them to play with them. I tend to learn the most in a one day, all day session with hands on time, shooting assignments and review of the footage. That's what we did at Canon this past weekend and it was very effective. While I own Canon gear, it is much better as a DP to be able to make an objective recommendation for which gear to shoot a clients project with if I am well versed on all of the finer points, advantages and disadvantages of the gear they are considering. I don't want to be one of those owner/operators who will only recommend their own gear and bad mouth everything else because they need to make the payment on their gear. That's not keeping the clients best interests in mind. Hence my goal for 2017, I want to be very conversant on all of the popular camera lines in my field within the next six months. I was just asked to shoot something this week with the Sony PMW F5, which I have never shot with. I have shot with the F55 once but do not know the camera very well. I'm sure I can spend 45 minutes with it and get the essentials for my shoot but it would be nice to know everything about the camera so I could instantly know where to turn on clear scan in case we have to shoot some monitors or if the gamma setting and setup the camera is setup for is best for what we are shooting.

 

[Bern Caughey]

Seems Abel Cine Tech is constantly sending emails about training with various professional cameras. While I don't think they're always free it seems you could get a lot of what your seeking thru them.

 

[emretufekci]

Rental hoses may still be inclined to let you demo gear as a potential future client it is in their best interest for you to know the gear so you can recommend it to your clients. Our rental houses here do open houses for that reason and I can always call in and ask for demo day.

If you have any questions about the Arri line feel free to reach out to me. I have the entire line-up in house as well as Arri motors, controllers accesories...etc and work closely to address issues with upgrades/patches.

Finally the Arri simulators are great tools:
http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/tools/alexa_camera_simulator/
http://www.arri.com/camera/amira/tools/amira_simulator/
http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa_mini/tools/alexa_mini_camera_simulator/

 

[puredrifting]

Thanks both of you, good advice. I am a colleague of Andy Shipsides at Abel so I will see what they have going on and yes, Emre, I may take you up on your kind offer and will check out the simulators for the Arris. I wish more of the manufacturers had simulators, they are pretty handy for learning this stuff. I will also speak with some people with ICG 600, I am sure they have learning opportunities as well.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Why seek to become experienced with so many different camera systems? As an owner/op you want your clients to hire you with your camera package, which you are specialized with, and then you charge them appropriately to bring that camera package on the shoot.

If you start learning other cameras, and become known as the guy to be hired for the Varicam LT shoot, Arri Amira shoot, Red shoot, etc., then you start getting hired without the gear you own, and in turn make less money.

So I say, instead of taking time to learn each camera systems, do diligent research to decide which camera is the best to buy, buy it, and then spend time learning primarily that camera's operations.

It doesn't hurt to have knowledge of how to operator other cameras, so long as it doesn't detract from you knowing your own camera and making money with it.

I'm not saying to recommend the wrong camera for the job just because you own it. Potential client comes to you needing an Alexa shoot for a commercial, you refer them to friend who owns an Alexa, instead of doing the job yourself for something like $500-$800 without gear (renting the Alexa seperately), then later your Alexa friend refers a BTS shoot to you, which your gear is appropriate for, and you make over a grand shooting it. So both you and your friend make more money this way. Meanwhile, the rental companies make less money because us owner/ops are supporting each other and making more money by doing so. Sounds good to me. I hate renting. I'd much rather own/ops made more money while rental companies make less.

I own a lot of gear, but I'll still do occasional shoots where I'm being hired without my gear, and thus make less money, particularly if things are slow otherwise. But if I'm going to spend time getting new clients, it'll be getting new clients that are going to hire me with the gear I own.

 

[puredrifting]

It may be that our markets are a bit different Eric. I work in LA where it seems that everyone shoots everything with something different. I also am beginning to work in different levels of projects. I am shooting a lifestyle piece this week with an Olympic athlete, I don't even know who the client is yet but I think it's for some kind of sponsored content. Client mentioned shooting on an F5, i think because they own one. But they also mentioned it will be a physically tight space for the shoot in a home so I suggested that my C100 would be good for that since it is a smaller camera but still has high quality. So they are fine with renting my C100 package. But I have other clients who are going to require 4K origination soon, they have given me warning to get up to speed on the various 4K cameras as their clients are the studios and the studios are all over the map on which camera systems they want or require.

Personally I feel that in my market, you limit yourself to one strata of clients and project by being wedded to one camera system. Many of the most successful DP colleagues I have as friends don't own any camera, they are camera "Agnostic". They have good relationships with rental houses and rent whatever the client wants. I see a lot of beauty to this model as I have tried talking clients who think they want/need one camera/system into the camera systems I own and it never feels good, it always feels as if they feel they are "missing out" by not shooting on XYZ camera. I have another corporate client who I produce projects for, mostly motion graphics driven projects, but I know for their live action projects, which I hope to land, they are pretty sold on RED only. So it makes a lot of sense for me to become conversant with RED cameras too in order to land projects with that client. The bottom line is, some of my clients either love Canon or don't care which camera we use and some of them are opinionated and specifically want me to rent a certain camera package/system. They really want to hire me because of my reel and reputation, but they want to shoot a certain format or camera system for a variety of reasons, some technical and some emotional. For me, learning at least the fundamentals of the "big four" makes a lot of financial sense.

I too hate renting gear but when you begin getting to the level where you have ACs and PAs who can pick up and drop it all off at the rental house, then it is less painful.

Why seek to become experienced with so many different camera systems? As an owner/op you want your clients to hire you with your camera package, which you are specialized with, and then you charge them appropriately to bring that camera package on the shoot.

If you start learning other cameras, and become known as the guy to be hired for the Varicam LT shoot, Arri Amira shoot, Red shoot, etc., then you start getting hired without the gear you own, and in turn make less money.

So I say, instead of taking time to learn each camera systems, do diligent research to decide which camera is the best to buy, buy it, and then spend time learning primarily that camera's operations.

It doesn't hurt to have knowledge of how to operator other cameras, so long as it doesn't detract from you knowing your own camera and making money with it.

I'm not saying to recommend the wrong camera for the job just because you own it. Potential client comes to you needing an Alexa shoot for a commercial, you refer them to friend who owns an Alexa, instead of doing the job yourself for something like $500-$800 without gear (renting the Alexa seperately), then later your Alexa friend refers a BTS shoot to you, which your gear is appropriate for, and you make over a grand shooting it. So both you and your friend make more money this way. Meanwhile, the rental companies make less money because us owner/ops are supporting each other and making more money by doing so. Sounds good to me. I hate renting. I'd much rather own/ops made more money while rental companies make less.

I own a lot of gear, but I'll still do occasional shoots where I'm being hired without my gear, and thus make less money, particularly if things are slow otherwise. But if I'm going to spend time getting new clients, it'll be getting new clients that are going to hire me with the gear I own.

 

[DLD]

Why seek to become experienced with so many different camera systems? As an owner/op you want your clients to hire you with your camera package, which you are specialized with, and then you charge them appropriately to bring that camera package on the shoot.

If you start learning other cameras, and become known as the guy to be hired for the Varicam LT shoot, Arri Amira shoot, Red shoot, etc., then you start getting hired without the gear you own, and in turn make less money.

So I say, instead of taking time to learn each camera systems, do diligent research to decide which camera is the best to buy, buy it, and then spend time learning primarily that camera's operations.

It doesn't hurt to have knowledge of how to operator other cameras, so long as it doesn't detract from you knowing your own camera and making money with it...

Because, when you're in LA, the camera operators are aplenty and the major clients are a few. Or, at least, the ratio is vastly different.

It's like, when you're playing in a best rock band in Tampa, you're the toast of the town. When the same band moves to LA with their dreams and aspirations, it has to stop by every live venue and drop their audition tape, only then having to wait months and months just to get a Wednesday 1 AM slot somewhere in the Valley. In PureDrifting's case, when Netflix or a major corp - via an ad agency - asks for a certain camera, that's the camera you show up on the set with. In that respect, being "camera agnostic" is actually a plus.

Now, once you get to the Deakins/Lubezki level, then people begin kissing your butt, asking on which cheek to start. Until then ...

PS. As for "training, sir!", I'd ask to tag along on a low/no budget shoot as a non-paid AC. Given the volume of the LA based productions and top notch pros, someone could surely use a free hand in exchange for a quick tutorial.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Many of the most successful DP colleagues I have as friends don't own any camera, they are camera "Agnostic".

...

I too hate renting gear but when you begin getting to the level where you have ACs and PAs who can pick up and drop it all off at the rental house, then it is less painful.

Well the way I see it is most work that is "marketing/promo/EPK/BTS/Doc" doesn't have a large crew, and doesn't offer very high day rates if you're showing up without equipment (I mean if you're just the DP/videographer; as a producer, company, etc., you can make a lot of money). Perhaps I'm wrong here, and perhaps you've just found the highest niche of that market which could enable you to make say over $1000 per day without gear. Of course in the high end commercial, scripted TV, and narrative world, it's common for DPs to make over $1000 per day without gear, and the gear is often so expensive (such as an Alexa package at around $120,00, plus another $200,000 of lenses), that owning doesn't make sense anymore.

I was interested to see that Charles Pappert still owns expensive lenses and is able to rent them out on his shoots, though I don't believe he owns a camera as I guess those must vary more than the types of lenses his shoots use.

It's like, when you're playing in a best rock band in Tampa, you're the toast of the town. When the same band moves to LA with their dreams and aspirations, it has to stop by every live venue and drop their audition tape, only then having to wait months and months just to get a Wednesday 1 AM slot somewhere in the Valley.

Ah yes, one of the joys of working in Tampa (or any smaller city). I get to have some of the best equipment and skillset (in my field) of an individual in the area, and I'm the only freelance Steadicam operator in Tampa who owns a decent Steadicam rig that can support heavier cameras.

Reminds me of my college days, where I was at a difficult college, studied a lot, got mediocre grades, and felt dumb because of it. Then I transferred to an easy college, studied just as hard, learned just as much, but got good grades, and felt smart because of it. I much preferred the latter.

 

[DLD]

... Ah yes, one of the joys of working in Tampa (or any smaller city). I get to have some of the best equipment and skillset (in my field) of an individual in the area, and I'm the only freelance Steadicam operator in Tampa who owns a decent Steadicam rig that can support heavier cameras.

Reminds me of my college days, where I was at a difficult college, studied a lot, got mediocre grades, and felt dumb because of it. Then I transferred to an easy college, studied just as hard, learned just as much, but got good grades, and felt smart because of it. I much preferred the latter.

I hope I didn't come off condescending. It's just I had spent a long time in LA and seen many an actor, writer, musician, comedian, etc. - I was once one myself - come into town and not only from a smaller geo/demo market but from a very prestigious university and find the going very hard. In fact, back in the early 1980's, a friend of mine played bass in a dance/pop band that did well in a club circuit in the Mdwest. I went to see them live and was amazed how good their guitar player was. My friend remarked, "He just came back from LA, gave it a shot but it didn't work out. There's a lot of talent out there". And that didn't even tell the whole story. To get a weekend slot on the Strip, bands used to "pay to play". The way that worked was that a band was responsible for selling X number of tickets to the venue. If they didn't hit their share, they had to cover it out of their own pocket. Meanwhile, that local Midwest band actually was paid for their gigs. LA is just a different beast.

 

[puredrifting]

I hope I didn't come off condescending. It's just I had spent a long time in LA and seen many an actor, writer, musician, comedian, etc. - I was once one myself - come into town and not only from a smaller geo/demo market but from a very prestigious university and find the going very hard. In fact, back in the early 1980's, a friend of mine played bass in a dance/pop band that did well in a club circuit in the Mdwest. I went to see them live and was amazed how good their guitar player was. My friend remarked, "He just came back from LA, gave it a shot but it didn't work out. There's a lot of talent out there". And that didn't even tell the whole story. To get a weekend slot on the Strip, bands used to "pay to play". The way that worked was that a band was responsible for selling X number of tickets to the venue. If they didn't hit their share, they had to cover it out of their own pocket. Meanwhile, that local Midwest band actually was paid for their gigs. LA is just a different beast.

There is a boatload of prduction on any given day of the week in LA. But there is an even bigger boatload of talented DPs and camera people out here competing for all of that work. It still all boils down to who you know, not which camera you own. All three of my top clients are producers I came up through the ranks with, worked at the same production company or began shooting corporate with them twenty years ago. I am beginning to get more work from other newer producers. I am friends with a DP who I used to hire a lot when I was doing a million to a million five per year as a production company back in the late 90s/early 2000s. Now I hire him to shoot occasionally, he is trying to get me hooked in with one of his large corporate clients as a production company, not as a DP. The two of us are friends with another producer he went to school with, I hire him, he hires me, it all shifts by the job. I produce, write, and DP, although I just got into the union so I am trying to get a leg up beyond just shooting EPK/BTS/Docs, hence the reason for my original post. It would be fun to shoot a series or on a feature, that's what my hope is I can make it to. In the LA market, you are much valuable if you can competently operate a Red, Arri, Sony, Canon or Panasonic camera and understand the unique features and finer points of the cameras.

 

[rob norton]

What about for the next shoot that is renting your c100 package you explain your situation and throw out splitting the costs to hire a RED? Otherwise RED do reducation workshops all over the place don't they?

Also, I can't answer if learning the sony f55 will help you with an fs7. But I'm sure Doug Jensen's master class - either book or video series will completely cover you for the fs7.

 

[puredrifting]

What about for the next shoot that is renting your c100 package you explain your situation and throw out splitting the costs to hire a RED? Otherwise RED do reducation workshops all over the place don't they?

Also, I can't answer if learning the sony f55 will help you with an fs7. But I'm sure Doug Jensen's master class - either book or video series will completely cover you for the fs7.

Good advice Rob, I will check out Doug's FS7 videos, I met him a few years back, nice guy.

Much of the production that I do does not go through extensive post. Typically marketing/PR type people are procrastinators and everything must be done at the last minute, which drives me crazy. I've been trying to get my three main clients to even consider shooting C-log to hold some extra highlights when shooting black talent in super bright daylight and even shooting log has been an uphill battle, their eyes glaze over when I tell them about LUTs and how when they see the footage before the LUT is applied, it will look gray and washed out. Most productions that would consider a RED would not consider shooting C100 or often even C300 MKII, at least in LA. I am in touch with Red to figure out various training options. A friend has an older Scralet that he will loan me to play with but I am concerned that the newer Reds would be pretty different operationally than my friend's older Scarlet.