Need camera advice

[cyvideo]

Chris im not mystically 'knocking' the fs7.

It seems you cannot read through my possibly rambling posts

Im saying that in 2024 for cheap solo doc shooting it may not be the best tool to choose. Other spends of the same dollar may deliver more.

Im saying the FS7 was to some extent mis-sold. As doco 'gold' - nah it was more of a fiddle.

As with hundreds of other mid level shooters it was the best camera at the time and im pleased to have and to own it. I was not too pleased to add £1500 of smallHD and other 'upgrades' to make it 'functional'

I think you cannot argue with my notes.
-the monitor in punch in mode is pixelated.
-luts are lost on playback or HFR
-the is no tool for evaluating RGB levels in your scene.
-pre roll is 'forgotten' when you exit HFR
-there is no journey from HD HFR to 4k without a huge menu dig.
-there is no audio recorded in HFR.

You cant argue with them because they are true.

Are they important? For solo doc shooting Id suggest so. For shooting narrative on a greenscreen Id suggest not.

Hense my suggestion that this could be a good budget tool for our OPs project.


----
As it happens in an era when one can buy the canon R7 for $1500 (and probably a better sony) Id also suggest folk may be ill advised to buy. anything off the dream list from the past without good knowledge and reason.
F35, F23, Red One, Alexa heavy FS700, C500i, C300, Super 16 film camera, Super35 film camera etc.

Morgan, I never suggested you were 'knocking' the FS7.

It's obviously a camera that never really worked for you. After many years of working with FS7s I've never had any of the problems you mention with the VF. But then again, I have never used 'punch in'. Never had the need to and have never had any focus issues.

I have never and will never play back from a camera in the field. If I need playback for any reason, I record externally with a lutted monitor / recorder and use those files for producers, directors, PA's playback etc. They can sit on the plane or in the hotel room watching the takes while making their notes. All the while knowing my files are safe and backed up. On major traveling docos, the producer, the PA and I all carry a set of backed up files. We use Red Giant's 'Offload' for this as they are check summed file backups and verified as exact copies.

I've never shot HFR footage on docos. If I need HFR footage in post the producers can choose exactly the bits they require at what frame rates they require, and I can knock them out with in Resolve with Optical Flow or if I need something better that handles occlusion better I use Flowframes. Often Flowrames gives me better results that I can achieve out of the FX6 at 4K 120p. And without the associated sensor crop. Usually outputting ProRes with Flowframes.

Sometimes I get a producer say, "I wish we had shot that in HFR last year when we started this series." I tell them it's not a problem, that we can try a variety of HFR speeds, and they can choose what speed and motion cadence they like best, with or without motion blur, with or without frame blending. Flowframes gives me HFR tuning capabilities I lack with a fixed camera HFR. Maybe this all stems back from my film days, when we had no real choices as we were locked into fixed frame rates when over cranking. It made post choices very limited. Today's AI GPU HFR gives me post-production freedom away from locked in FPS in the camera and the data card chewing capacity that HFR requires.

Agreed, with the no checking the RGB levels, but again I can do that with a 5" Ninja monitor recorder if need be.

Re your points regarding pre-roll, menu jumps between HFR and 4K and the no audio in HFR. They are not an issue for me as I never used HFR in the field.

In the end I guess it all comes down the OPs needs.

I know right now if I had to jump on a plane tomorrow to shoot something, and that I can take one camera only and that it has to meet carry on requirements for a four-seater plane or helicopter. What would my requirements be? It would be a small camera, that has NDs, XLRs, a viewfinder and that has SDI output for monitoring and recording. For me HDMI has been a disaster when requiring reliable monitoring when in planes, choppers and, yes, submarines and warships. Also highly important to me is a camera with minimal if any rigging that utilizes small internal batteries and that can run the camera for five plus hours continuously. That was why I used FS7s.

To meet those sorts of requirements today, I do it with a smaller package. For me, it's the FX6 that fits the requirements bill that the FS7 used to fill. I don't know much about Canon mirrorless, but I know neither of my Sony A7s will fit the bill. Still always try to take one along if and when possible, though. I'd like to get my hands on a C80 to check it out... but I won't because of having to start all over again on the lens merry-go-round.

Chris Young

Red Giant Offload

Flowframes

 

[cyvideo]

My .02, the Fs7 was a toy and the stock VF was hot garbage that was only half-way useable if absolutely nothing or no one was moving.

I’m actually doing more work with my 2/3” ENG cams now, than I have in years.

Agreed. Compared to our old Digi and PDW cam models, FS7s are of a flimsy build and have a rather plastic feeling. No way able to stand up to the rigors of the daily grind, the 2/3" cams did. Especially the VF setup. I finally sold my last XDCam as the demand for it along with the people working post with XDCam discs had diminished greatly. There is still a lot of network work using 2/3" cams, so I understand what you are saying here.

Chris Young

 

[morgan_moore]

It's obviously a camera that never really worked for you.

It worked well for me but was not really the rig free box all in that it was sold at/we wanted it to be. The FX6 I really think is that.

After many years of working with FS7s I've never had any of the problems you mention with the VF. But then again, I have never used 'punch in'. Never had the need to and have never had any focus issues.

You know Im from stills and know that a 50at2 is a beast to focus for 4k - I went to stills af in 1997. It seems that you folk who came from 2/3 somehow manage.. either by going with a deeper stop (which is not the point of a large sensor camera?) or doing less ambitions shot or just being better than me or having lower standards. Still today im baffled by the guys who do a clean headshot at the football or golf.

I have never and will never play back from a camera in the field. If I need playback for any reason, I record externally with a lutted monitor / recorder and use those files for producers, directors, PA's playback etc.

The 'dream' of a solo camera wil the fs7 was to me to move unencumbered with no need for a monitor or the batteries and wires and rigging it needs. Once again I come from stills and wandering the world with a very tiny load.

To playback the fs7 is a tradgedy and losing luts makes it worse.

Two days of sony software development could deliver usable playback

Of course I own a atomos and can record and directors can play back with an iphne swipe they understand.. but once you are in that club you are no longer a solo wanderer.

I've never shot HFR footage on docos. I

I covered a specific sporting event and wanted them coming over the line in HFR and then to verbally poke in.. "how was your race?" 10 seconds later .. the FS7 requires a 12 second button fandango to do this.

Two days of sony software development could maybe deliver HFR and audio. Most dslrs have it!

Agreed, with the no checking the RGB levels, but again I can do that with a 5" Ninja monitor recorder if need be.

RGB histo is available in DSLR cameras. that cost $500 Yet sony Sould not deliver it in a camera 14* the price and demanded you purchase and carry £1000 of monitor batteries and rigging to check your white balance.

Two days of sony software development could deliver RGB histo.

Re your points regarding pre-roll, menu jumps between HFR and 4K and the no audio in HFR. They are not an issue for me as I never used HFR in the field.

I call it waiting for the bunny. You point the camera at the hole and with prerroll do a 5gb shot or with no preroll have to waste hundreds of gigs of dead air. Dead air you cant even play back.

Two days of sony software development could deliver'remembered' pre roll.

In the end I guess it all comes down the OPs needs.

I know right now if I had to jump on a plane tomorrow to shoot something, and that I can take one camera only and that it has to meet carry on requirements for a four-seater plane or helicopter.

For me, it's the FX6 that fits the requirements bill that the FS7 used to fill. I don't know much about Canon mirrorless, but I know neither of my Sony A7s will fit the bill. Still always try to take one along if and when possible, though. but I won't because of having to start all over again on the lens merry-go-round.

We agree the FX6 is the tool - with AF you can live with a bad sc reen because a green box is telling you you are sharp.. the difference is huge.

I'd like to get my hands on a C80 to check it out...

I would not go near the C80 as you have to hold it like a teen girl with a phone.. or buy £1000 of rigging monitor and external batteries!

Maybe you should try an r5 or whatever the sony version is. I was on a job and I had my rigged C200 while my chum handheld his r5.. honeslty I was shocked at the quality of his work and his nimble ability to get around -

There is something about the new gen of mirrorless that is just shockingly good. Maybe ith is the EVF qualiry or the body stabilisation.. something just popped into brilliance.. whereare the 5d and that gen were jello shockers.

I bought my R6 shortly after that c200/r5 shoot.. As I noted my beeb chum also now shoots mirrorless too after 25 years on 2/3.

 

[Run&Gun]

Agreed. Compared to our old Digi and PDW cam models, FS7s are of a flimsy build and have a rather plastic feeling. No way able to stand up to the rigors of the daily grind, the 2/3" cams did. Especially the VF setup. I finally sold my last XDCam as the demand for it along with the people working post with XDCam discs had diminished greatly. There is still a lot of network work using 2/3" cams, so I understand what you are saying here.

Chris Young

To hit the price point that Sony did, especially with the feature set that they gave it, something(s) had to be sacrificed, and the those were the biggies.

I have to laugh a little bit about all of the work that I'm doing with 2/3" native 720P cams that were introduced 16 years ago. Part of it just goes to show you how insanely well designed and built ENG cameras and lenses were/are.

 

[morgan_moore]

It seems that Im a fan of..
a) a proper shoulder cam and EVF
2) a mirrorless and evf

a mirrorless doesnt need a shoulder. but any fs7, c70 or whatever held in front is a disaster unless rigged to be a shoulder camera.

==

Of course our OP shooting on greenscreen sticks is playing another game

 

[cyvideo]

To hit the price point that Sony did, especially with the feature set that they gave it, something(s) had to be sacrificed, and the those were the biggies.

I have to laugh a little bit about all of the work that I'm doing with 2/3" native 720P cams that were introduced 16 years ago. Part of it just goes to show you how insanely well designed and built ENG cameras and lenses were/are.

Indeed, they were the peak of design and function. The lenses were... and still are great examples of design, quality, function and performance. And you can pick up the odd B4 for peanuts compared to what we paid for them new. I've just finished three 4K shoots on an FX6 using an SD B4 lens. The prelim tests I shot out in our cul-de-sac with this combo showed me that I could use such a setup when there was a need for ENG type lens flexibility. You can download a few of the shots from those tests at the following link if you wish to see the results. Don't watch online, just download them to get a better idea. Watch on a 4K monitor if you can. All shot at base ISO of 320. UHD 50p on a Fuji SD 7.6 x 18. Decent MTF and contrast across the range, virtually nil CA unless you really pixel peep. Perfectly okay for a variety of my client's jobs. First paying Guinea pig for this combo went away with his footage and a smile.

Chris Young

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rMU5hz_Eu-yZBBIBI161t1weHIdWQ1Py/view?usp=sharing

 

[cyvideo]

It's obviously a camera that never really worked for you.

It worked well for me but was not really the rig free box all in that it was sold at/we wanted it to be. The FX6 I really think is that.

After many years of working with FS7s I've never had any of the problems you mention with the VF. But then again, I have never used 'punch in'. Never had the need to and have never had any focus issues.

You know Im from stills and know that a 50at2 is a beast to focus for 4k - I went to stills af in 1997. It seems that you folk who came from 2/3 somehow manage.. either by going with a deeper stop (which is not the point of a large sensor camera?) or doing less ambitions shot or just being better than me or having lower standards. Still today im baffled by the guys who do a clean headshot at the football or golf.

I have never and will never play back from a camera in the field. If I need playback for any reason, I record externally with a lutted monitor / recorder and use those files for producers, directors, PA's playback etc.

The 'dream' of a solo camera wil the fs7 was to me to move unencumbered with no need for a monitor or the batteries and wires and rigging it needs. Once again I come from stills and wandering the world with a very tiny load.

To playback the fs7 is a tradgedy and losing luts makes it worse.

Two days of sony software development could deliver usable playback

Of course I own a atomos and can record and directors can play back with an iphne swipe they understand.. but once you are in that club you are no longer a solo wanderer.

I've never shot HFR footage on docos. I

I covered a specific sporting event and wanted them coming over the line in HFR and then to verbally poke in.. "how was your race?" 10 seconds later .. the FS7 requires a 12 second button fandango to do this.

Two days of sony software development could maybe deliver HFR and audio. Most dslrs have it!

Agreed, with the no checking the RGB levels, but again I can do that with a 5" Ninja monitor recorder if need be.

RGB histo is available in DSLR cameras. that cost $500 Yet sony Sould not deliver it in a camera 14* the price and demanded you purchase and carry £1000 of monitor batteries and rigging to check your white balance.

Two days of sony software development could deliver RGB histo.

Re your points regarding pre-roll, menu jumps between HFR and 4K and the no audio in HFR. They are not an issue for me as I never used HFR in the field.

I call it waiting for the bunny. You point the camera at the hole and with prerroll do a 5gb shot or with no preroll have to waste hundreds of gigs of dead air. Dead air you cant even play back.

Two days of sony software development could deliver'remembered' pre roll.

In the end I guess it all comes down the OPs needs.

I know right now if I had to jump on a plane tomorrow to shoot something, and that I can take one camera only and that it has to meet carry on requirements for a four-seater plane or helicopter.

For me, it's the FX6 that fits the requirements bill that the FS7 used to fill. I don't know much about Canon mirrorless, but I know neither of my Sony A7s will fit the bill. Still always try to take one along if and when possible, though. but I won't because of having to start all over again on the lens merry-go-round.

We agree the FX6 is the tool - with AF you can live with a bad sc reen because a green box is telling you you are sharp.. the difference is huge.

I'd like to get my hands on a C80 to check it out...

I would not go near the C80 as you have to hold it like a teen girl with a phone.. or buy £1000 of rigging monitor and external batteries!

Maybe you should try an r5 or whatever the sony version is. I was on a job and I had my rigged C200 while my chum handheld his r5.. honeslty I was shocked at the quality of his work and his nimble ability to get around -

There is something about the new gen of mirrorless that is just shockingly good. Maybe ith is the EVF qualiry or the body stabilisation.. something just popped into brilliance.. whereare the 5d and that gen were jello shockers.

I bought my R6 shortly after that c200/r5 shoot.. As I noted my beeb chum also now shoots mirrorless too after 25 years on 2/3.

MM. I guess we just came from different worlds and experiences.

A lot of what you have outlined have never been an issue for me. I started in film, both stills and motion. No playback, no gimping, all manual focus, a Weston Master 4 or if lucky a Master 5. Which eventually you rarely used as you just had to develop your skill set and just know what the exposure had to be and judge distance visually as often you never had the time to eye focus a rangefinder M2 accurately. Nearly impossible in very low light. You mentally calculated and then set your lens to your distance judgement. Exposure and distance judged by eye for any given situation you found yourself in day or night. Then telling the lab how far to push your 125 ASA film because you had rated it at 400 because you had run out of light.

Apart from my Nikon F kit, humping an ARRI 16 with a 400' mags and a battery over your shoulder for a few hours was not light work, and you knew it. Cache, pre-roll? We would have though we were in heaven had such a thing existed. At the Beeb, we were given two four hundred foot mags to cover a full football match. And if you came back without all the goals you got berated with "Well ITV got them all!" You invented and shot the pre-roll you required AFTER a goal was scored.

This is all beginning to sound a bit Monty Pythonish, isn't it?

"You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six o’clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down mill for fourteen hours a day week in-week out."

Chris Young

If you have the right tools for the job in hand you can develop the skills and overcome most obstacles. This is a developed skill.

 

[morgan_moore]

Absolutely. In my stills world I could process film in my Saab using a microwave a 1kw genny and a dark bag in the Argyle ground.. maybe you were at the same Argyle ground at the same matches - im not S16 old

Before sending on a Nokia 2110 via pcmcia card and nikon coolscan.

You wont meet a lot of snappers who did that

We have been on a journey in the last decades.

Todays folk dont need much of that pain and can concentrate on story.. so I may summarise..?

1) While being less painful than super16 the fs7 is significantly more painful than a mirrorless camera or fx6. Considering the cost of mirrorless it may be worth giving a it miss.

2)Sony made it more painful by making some slack choices in the fs7 firmware that Im sure could have been sorted cheaply using technology of the time. That was annoying to me.

 

[zpanama123]

Tom, look. Everybody has an opinion on what camera is best. That's a load of old horse s**t. You know what they say about opinions? They are like a rear piece of your anatomy. Everyone has one.

There is no perfect camera, as production needs can be totally different from production to production. Some people love the FS7 and some hate it. On today's used market, they offer great value at the low $$$s you can pick one up for. You will as a matter of course have to evaluate your situation, shooting requirements and budget to come to a suitable conclusion, hopefully a successful one. As a doco camera, the FS7 camera is a very capable piece of kit that can shoot everything from green screen to sports, entertainment, news, corporates etc. etc. It's only a tool. I know, I've shot all of the above for various broadcasters around the world on FS7s. In the end it's your story telling ability and your skill in the depiction of your ideas that will define the lack of or success of anything you produce.

An interesting aside. A few years ago, when working in Europe, on a free night the whole crew went to see, because it sounded interesting, "Magnetic", in the cinema in 4K. It looked amazing, and I'm pretty jaded with images, having worked with them for decades. It takes a bit for me to say "wow!", and on seeing Magnetic, I was pretty amazed. The cinema was using Sony's CineAlta 4K projectors. If you know anything about Thierry Donard and his Nuit de la Glisse series of international award-winning documentaries you will know he and one of his cameramen, Simon Favier are extreme filmmakers. Filmmakers who push the boundaries of film making. Extreme boundaries that can put equipment under a lot of duress. So don't let anyone tell you the FS7 is no good for docos. And don't forget. Millions of feet of film and video have been shot very successfully before modern AF technology. I have nothing against AF. I use it a lot on both my FX6 and A7... and even on the FS7, which with the latest AF lenses, works surprisingly well.

Interestingly, I found out later that the bulk of Magnetic was shot on the FS7 and FS5's. Two of the lenses they used a lot were the now ancient 28-135 mm zoom and the tiny, cheap 10-18 mm zoom. Both lenses a lot of people love to beat down on. To see the results from the FS7 camera and those two el cheapo mass-produced lenses projected onto one of Paris' largest cinema screens in 4K was quite outstanding. I would never have believed it unless I had seen the projected quality myself. Magnetic was shot in S-LOG3, not RAW.

It's because they chose the FS7 that Sony ended up supplying them with three kits to shoot Magnetic. Why did they choose the FS7? If you want to find out, watch from around 33 minutes onward in "Filming under pressure with Nuit de la Glisse" and you will hear the reasons as to why they went with the FS7. Plus a whole host of other interesting reasons and points about the production as a whole. And the FS7 was a few years old when they chose it.

All that camera capability is now available for $1k to $2k. We live in amazing times. The rest is up to you.

Chris Young
Magnetic trailer.

Filming under pressure with Nuit de la Glisse

Hi Chris, thank you so much for the wisdom and just taking the time to explain things, as a newbie reading all this info and online posts and youtubes it's hard to have perspective, so that is so important to me. Thanks again, Tom

 

[zpanama123]

In regards to shooting on green/blue screens, some notes from my experiences.

Because some cameras force a tradeoff of resolution against codec, I've talked to compositors about which is more important to their workflow. The majority have said they'd take the resolution first. So I've delivered plenty of 4:2:2 greenscreen footage at 4K or more without any complaints. Although given the option, I'd obviously deliver 444.

A fully uniform green/blue screen is nice to provide, but hardly critical as it once was. Comp software is remarkably forgiving now. Even the crazy cheap Blackmagic ATEM Mini switchers have a robust enough keyer built into them to pull live keys from backgrounds with a fair amount of variation. However there are things that complicate keying in post significantly. Haze or atmosphere is one. Better to shoot clean and recreate that later (or shoot a smoke pass live, generally preferred against black). I've also seen the challenges of keying out of focus elements in the frame, where the green blends with the edge of the object or person. If one is able to separate elements into depth planes and shoot them separately with every element in focus, it's much easier in post to build the comp first and then blur the various subjects as desired to recreate the desired depth of field for a given shot.

Spill was mentioned earlier--having as much distance as possible from backing to talent is ideal. If the lighting is low-key, it's that much more critical. For particularly dark lighting style, I'll often bring in large solids behind and to the sides of the subject right to the edge of the frame to minimize spill (with a green/blue screen that continued on significantly to the sides).

What has really helped me in recent years to achieve the correct look is to work with live comps on set. As I mentioned above, the Blackmagic switchers all have a workable keyer and can be had for so little now, it is so much easier and more enjoyable. I helped out a group of young filmmakers who were also doing a fan-fiction style greenscreen shoot earlier this year, I came in with my cart and pulled live keys with their supplied backgrounds. They'd done a bunch of these shoots but never had that capability before, and were totally blown away with the experience. It's more gear to wrangle of course (switcher and laptop, and a bit of attention on the day to coordinate the background files) but it might be worth looking into to improve your experience.

Hi Charles,
Thank you so much for taking your time to help me.

That you have been able to make it work with 4-2-2 4k is the info I need, and that 444 is even better if I can get it.

I never thought of using a switcher but if it enables keying live, that would be a big plus. If I can know it's working now instead of dealing with issues later...big plus.

Your idea about shooting different depths separately and doing out of focus in post is a solution to something on my mind.

I was thinking of bring in a laptop with Davinci, would it be helpful, so that's another answer to a question I didn't verbalize.

Shoot will be bright light on the talent, so hopefully spill is manageable.

If I might impose upon your generosity, I'm curious about pulling live keys for their backgrounds. Excuse a newbie, but if they are shooting green screen, why do you key the background which I assume will be added in post after green screen is removed?

Thanks so much, it sounds like you have done what I need done, perfect! Tom

 

[CharlesPapert]

If I might impose upon your generosity, I'm curious about pulling live keys for their backgrounds. Excuse a newbie, but if they are shooting green screen, why do you key the background which I assume will be added in post after green screen is removed?

Can you please clarify this question for me? Just not sure I understand what you are asking.

 

[zpanama123]

Can you please clarify this question for me? Just not sure I understand what you are asking.

Sorry, was thinking you were referencing backgrounds other than green screen, re-read and appears backgrounds are the green screens. If so, makes sense now.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Sorry, was thinking you were referencing backgrounds other than green screen, re-read and appears backgrounds are the green screens. If so, makes sense now.

My fault. I should have said I made live comps using their backgrounds!

On that particular gig they didn't have backgrounds ready for all of the shots, so I'd ask the director what he had in mind and then AI generate versions of that while they were lighting each setup. It was a fun race against the clock!

 

[cyvideo]

Absolutely. In my stills world I could process film in my Saab using a microwave a 1kw genny and a dark bag in the Argyle ground.. maybe you were at the same Argyle ground at the same matches - im not S16 old

Before sending on a Nokia 2110 via pcmcia card and nikon coolscan.

You wont meet a lot of snappers who did that

We have been on a journey in the last decades.

Todays folk dont need much of that pain and can concentrate on story.. so I may summarise..?

1) While being less painful than super16 the fs7 is significantly more painful than a mirrorless camera or fx6. Considering the cost of mirrorless it may be worth giving a it miss.

2)Sony made it more painful by making some slack choices in the fs7 firmware that Im sure could have been sorted cheaply using technology of the time. That was annoying to me.

I understand what you are saying. But on reflection, the FS7 was the first of a new breed of camera. A breakaway from the more cine styled F5/F55. It started a large single sensor revolution that's led to many of today's mirrorless cameras now being more orientated to video than stills. Like the FX3, FX3, A7Siii. And of course from the Sony stable the real crossover, the FX6. Probably offering the best of both worlds. On that basis, I'm prepared to forgive the FS7 it's shortcomings. It still stands as the best-selling video S35 in history. So I guess despite any shortcomings it has, if did the job for countless thousands of shooters around the globe. And still does as a budget rental according to many rental houses.

Chris Young

 

[morgan_moore]

The rail train may have eaten the horse and cart for fast delivery of information.. And that should be celebrated.. Im prepared to forgive the shortcomings of the rail train..but that doesnt make it relevant today.

The FS100, Fs700 were kind of the first in 'consumer s35 video' - to be frank the FS100 was prettey superb apart from the lack of ND. I like the form factor, today with AF it would be excellent. in terms of the 'golden broadcast ready 50mps422'.. the C300 was first. Log 4k 422 that still stands up.. yes that was and is anacheivement of the Fs7 and maybe emount ND... and space for a speedbooster.. which made it oudo the F5/55 for many without the wedge for a CN17

So it is still more relvant than the C300, Fs100 as Ive said multiple times.

You dont mention if you have tried a mirrorless?

 

[cyvideo]

The rail train may have eaten the horse and cart for fast delivery of information.. And that should be celebrated.. Im prepared to forgive the shortcomings of the rail train..but that doesnt make it relevant today.

The FS100, Fs700 were kind of the first in 'consumer s35 video' - to be frank the FS100 was prettey superb apart from the lack of ND. I like the form factor, today with AF it would be excellent. in terms of the 'golden broadcast ready 50mps422'.. the C300 was first. Log 4k 422 that still stands up.. yes that was and is anacheivement of the Fs7 and maybe emount ND... and space for a speedbooster.. which made it oudo the F5/55 for many without the wedge for a CN17

So it is still more relvant than the C300, Fs100 as Ive said multiple times.

You dont mention if you have tried a mirrorless?

True. I had the FS100, and then the FS700 with the $400 4k upgrade. Which in typical Sony fashion they included for $0 in the later FS700R variant. But they were purely AVCHD cams unless you recorded externally. Later FS700s had the 4K Raw upgrade as standard. But it was like the FS7 RAW. Pretty useless, insufficient data. Which Sony conceded was the fact.

C300 Mk 1? I would surmise that for those who wanted 1080 50 /60p it was a far more relevant than the C300 as that could only do that at 720p. For many in post, the 1080 50p on a 25p timeline gave you instant access to 50% slo-mo without quality loss. 1080 50p 422 in 4k was one of the FS7's major draw cards in the early days.
Plus, it filled the bill when broadcasters wanted that ubiquitous XDCam 50-mbit 422 50i file structure. Many still do. I've got producers who won't take a progressive file. This week I had to convert my FX6 footage to ProRes 422 50i for one client.

I did mention I have mirrorless. I have had three Sony mirrorless cams. Two of which I still have. I flicked the A7Siii three as it's high gain sensitivity is greatly impaired by a locked in NR profile, and it doesn't offer its best dynamic range unless you record externally in RAW. Apart from its rolling shutter performance where it is good, dynamic range is far more important to me. Currently, the king of Sony A7s for dynamic range, better than the A1, A9 or any of the other A7 cams is the A7iv. In Cine D's tests it is in the top ten along with three ARRI cams, including the king, the Alexa 35, the Venice 2 and the EOS C500 Mk II. The A7iv is embarrassingly better than my FX6 in that regard. Along with its dynamic range of 12.9 stops at SNR = 2 it offers a good exposure latitude of 7 stops. For pure image quality, it is my favorite. It's probably greatly helped by its 7k sensor downsampling. But if I have to shoot a footy match or live show where NDs and B4 lens type functionality and performance is required, it's a non-starter. That's why I have adapted the FX6 to be able to run B4 lenses in 4k.

Chris Young

 

[morgan_moore]

Everything we both say is 100% true

And then it comes to definitions of what we are trying to do.

I guess that the beginer can learn to shoot in a free and effortless way using a mirrorless and 24-70 with a 3stop solid ND nothing more or a rode mic..

I think this combo is under rated.

You can have joy, not get a bad back, not break the bank and learn to shoot story. (you can even shoot the nightly news for the bbc)

More so than with a S16film, fs7 or anything else Id suggest. (apart from the expensive fx6 and c400)

Of course we then move to 'specialist' jobs.. be that a B4 zooming sports match, a video village for clients, going live on the sat van, ultra slo motion or whatever. Then the other tools start to come into play.

 

[rob norton]

@cyvideo, I vaguely remember asking you a couple of years ago about your relationship with Sony but couldn't find the thread.

Do you specifically enjoy using Sony products - different to enjoying using cameras which happen to be Sony. Is it your favourite brand?

I'm not asking this in an apple vs. PC way, or challenging your appreciation of Sony. I'm assuming a lifetime of successful shoots using their cameras has strengthened your perception of the brand, but is there an added feeling or positive emotional attachment when working?

 

[cyvideo]

@cyvideo, I vaguely remember asking you a couple of years ago about your relationship with Sony but couldn't find the thread.

Do you specifically enjoy using Sony products - different to enjoying using cameras which happen to be Sony. Is it your favourite brand?

I'm not asking this in an apple vs. PC way, or challenging your appreciation of Sony. I'm assuming a lifetime of successful shoots using their cameras has strengthened your perception of the brand, but is there an added feeling or positive emotional attachment when working?

Rob. Sony is primarily my first choice, as it was and still is a bottom line driven decision. For years, my facility in Sydney was all DVC Pro tape based. Three edit suites running six sometimes seven days a week as we were delivering fifty sports show a year to first it was Sky Sports, then Optus Sports and finally Fox Sports. We were all Panasonic DVC Pro 50 since the 2000 Olympics. I had a number of overseas network contracts for pre Olympic coverage, plus coverage during the Olympics. That's why I went to Panasonic in 2000, as they were the official broadcast partner. I also designed and configured and oversaw the Sydney big screen Olympic play out system for the 2000 Olympics. Which we ran in conjunction with The International Broadcast Centre (IBC) as we were taking their feeds. Going to Panasonic was made fairly easy as we got some great deals from them. Prior to digital tape, it was SP Betacam suites since the '80s. What pushed me back to Sony was the move from tape to digital media. It was at that time I started to invest in digital NLE production with a move to Media 100 and Discreet *edit suites. The killer for me in this new digital world was Panasonic. When Panasonic went to HD P2 their media prices were insane for even 8GB cards.

What brought me back to Sony was that I had won an entertainment contract that required five to six crews shooting nightly shows, spread across all capital cities in Australia, recording up to three to four hours per camera per show for sixty fours shows for the year. At that time, in AU$, a 32GB P2 card cost around $2000.00 There was no way in the world I could make that project work on that cost basis. It was 2008 and Sony had just released their PDW-F700 XDCam Disc camera. From an economic POV I had no option other than move back to Sony as I could buy 50GB discs for just on AU$50.00. They are still around that price. So all the DVCPro 50 machines and cameras went. We were already doing HD, but not mainstream. It was now time to switch the whole business 100% to HD. So it was back to Sony with XDCam cameras and recorder players. I have been back with Sony ever since. I still have around 400 XDCam discs sitting on the shelves. Every now and again, someone buys a box or two. To help sell the XDCams I gave away fifty discs with each camera.

The progression from disc to media cards was a natural follow on as we transitioned to SxS card PMW cameras over time. Both PMW 1/2" and 2/3" cams. The FS7s were just a follow on from that. That's why my FS7s were equipped with B4 adapters, so I could still meet contract needs over five years of rugby league but also still satisfy producers who now wanted that big sensor look on other production material. Though in the van, we were still using XDCam recorders and controllers, for the slo-mo replays etc. All our post was now XDCam 50-mbit 422 50i as that was the broadcast requirement.

So yes, I'm very comfortable with Sony kit, Sony staff and very importantly Sony's tech support. After all, it's a people business we are in. More important to me than just kit has been my relationship with Sony over the years. When new kit has come out, they have given me new cameras, VTRs and studio gear for weeks on end for testing. Which sometimes we earned income off. Often it was pre-production prototype kit with no serial numbers. I could tell you some disaster stories about some of those tests. Likewise with Panasonic and Hitachi. I had a number of Hitachi cameras docked with SP backs in the Beta days. I never charged Sony, Panasonic or Hitachi for the time taken to shoot and test various kit in various scenarios for them. Or the hours I spent writing up tech reports for all of them after testing. Which was fine as I knew they would reciprocate in other ways. Sony and Panasonic were great like that. Everyone calls it networking these days.

I closed my studio and edit facilities in the city a few years back and just contract from home, nowadays, where I have a whole floor office / edit suite. Hiring crew when more than one operator is required. I still shoot and edit for clients I've had for years. But that is diminishing fairly rapidly as a lot of them are my age and are retired or in the process of retiring. Quite a few have even dropped off the perch.

So your statement, "I'm assuming a lifetime of successful shoots using their cameras has strengthened your perception of the brand, but is there an added feeling or positive emotional attachment when working?" is perceptually spot on. You picked it in one! That association started back in the Sony tube camera era, so it's been a long time.

The one benefit of this industry for me is that the cameras have got smaller and lighter as I've got older and weaker. So I love the FX6 and A7s. There is no way I could hump a full-blown EFP rig on a Steadicam these days. Live to air for Christmastime "Carols in the Park" for two hours would nearly kill me back then. I'd be done in five minutes today.

Chris Young.

 

[rob norton]

Thanks Chris, amazing reply and what an incredible condensed biography.