Need an Audio Recorder for shooting with Canon 5D MKII

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
Hi all:

Looking into buying a 5D MKII to play with basically, for a doc project and I am deciding about which recorder to buy. Need XLRs and phantom to use real mics, need small and light. I have not heard very good things about the Zoom recorders as far as sound quality although the features and price are appealing.

Tascam has a new recorder, the DR-100, for just a bit more with similar features to the Zoom H4N. Does anyone know anything about this new Tascam, how it sounds, when it will be available, etc.? Generally, I like Tascam gear, I have two of their DAT recorders from back in the day and I like their stuff better than Fostex or Marantz. Feedback or suggestions? Want to stay under $500.00 as this is a self financed project. If it were for clients, Sound Devices 702 all of the way, but I want smaller, lighter and cheaper for a digital audio recorder.

Dan
 
If you're looking at the DR-100, take a careful look at the manual. There's some weirdness in the power options and I'm not awake enough to make proper sense of it.

It appears the unit comes with a Li-ion battery but has separate allowance for AA batteries. The unit can charge the Li-ion, but perhaps not the AAs. It doesn't include an AC adapter, so you're stuck charging off of USB or forking out more cash for the privilige of a fast charge and running off wall power.
 
I haven't had experience with the Tascam but when I compared it to Zoom's H4n I wasn't a fan that the DR-100 only had 3 gain settings (Low, medium, and high). This is the same as the H4, but they switched to a 1-100 level adjust on the H4n which I liked.

That's the only difference I ever noticed between them.
 
puredrifting said:
I have not heard very good things about the Zoom recorders as far as sound quality although the features and price are appealing.
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Hi, Dan!

I have a Zoom H4 and the sound quality is fantastic... if you have a mixer (or MixPre) on the front end and feed the H4 line-level. The pre-amps have decent frequency response, but are noisy. Though I have no first-hand, I hear that the pre-amps are greatly improved in the H4n. What's more, the compact size means that you don't add too much bulk with a compact mixer... everything stays pretty lightweight.

It's too bad you're limiting to $500, because the Tascam HD-P2 is a nifty machine. And it feels very, very familiar to a veteran of the DA-P1. (Kinda wish I hadn't sold my DA-P1...)

Though it is just over your $500 mark, have you looked at the Fostex FR2-LE? I've played with one... the pre's are impressive in the sub-$1000 category of portable recorders. Though it is scaled-down in many ways, it still feels good in operation.
 
Hi Jordan:

I checked out the manual, I kind of like the power options. The unit comes with a lithium battery pack that can be charged via USB or an optional AC adpater that costs $28.95. The unit will also run on AA batteries. Or it can run off of both, increasing record times. It's too bad that they get you the extra few bucks for the adapter but I would probably go for it. As far as AAs, I am also a still photographer and have stacks of AA rechargables and chargers for my flashes so this would fit smoothly into my workflow.

All I want to know about the Tascam is how clean are the mic pres and how clean is the headphone circuit?

Dan
 
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Gohanto:

If you read the manual, you will see that the three mic gain level switches are merely for adjusting impedence to get the recording levels in the ballpark, depending on if you are using hi-Z, low-Z mics of differing levels. There is an infinitely variable microphone input knob on the side of the Tascam. If the Zoom really features input levels calibrated 1-100, then the Tascam controls are superior, offering infinite input scale at three different impedence levels.

Dan
 
Hi C2V:

That's the problem, I don't want to carry a mixer and I will be shooting solo so line in doesn't help me. I am shooting all over France for a doc in June, just the subject and myself mostly so I am going as small and as light as possible, hence the 5D MKII for video and stills and the recorder to handle sound. I like the Olympus and the Edirol but neither have XLRs with phantom and I am not willing to give up real condenser mics so the Tascam or the Zoom look like the next step up the ladder, still small and light but feature XLRs.

I know I should just be done with it and buy the SD 702 but too much money and too large for this trip.

Dan
 
Questions:

1) What setting do you record at? Is the H4n's 24-bit/96khz setting useful? Is the 192khz of the Fostex FR2 or Tascam HDP2 useful?

2) Is there an objective way to evaluate the units, given that many are new with few (none) reporting field experience?

3) Are the onboard mics on the H4n and DR100 useful for anything? If so, is the DR-100's option of two omni or two directional mics useful? Are built in mics on a $350-430 unit useful generally?

4) Some of this equipment can take an odd hit in the field. Is one brand more sturdy than another.

A little bird is telling me I'd never look at a $100 mic nor a has Samson ever been high on my purchase list.

Update: Added question, what is a Korg and 1-bit recording?

id_70087x_fig1.gif
 
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From my experience I would favour Tascam. The onboard mics will be ok for run&gun situations or where you want to quickly pick up some noise....16 or 24 bit 48 KHz should suffice. I dont want a square wave! Dan, have a look at these little mics which I love: http://www.soundman.de/, they are in-ear mics, look like ipod plugs but make incredibly realistic stereo recordings. I used them for ambiences and they reach the high end schoeps and what not stuff in the 10k$ league IMO.
 
Well, I'm not Dan, however those microphones seen very interesting. Where did you get them?

As to the square wave...it is an extreme example for fitting FFTs. On the video side it is equivalent to using square waves (the line pair bar charts) to measure MFT; the only correct way is with a sine chart. It would seem the '1-bit' method captures sound more accurately. The Korg with XLRs is $998-1070, about the same of the Tascom HDP2.

The MR-1, which operationally is as big a pain as the Canon 5DM2, is now $229 at B&H, obviously end of life. It has a built in battery but a rebate for a free battery external battery pack. The 3.5mm plugs are powered, but you need to make a custom XLR to 3.5mm stereo adapter.

The big issue, sound quality, an issue with all the units in this price range, apparently goes out the window here. The MR-1 will record at 44/48/88/96/178/192 and at 1-bit@2.8Mhz. The reviews I've just read described the last like reccording in photos in RAW. Their presentation on the 10-100kHz recording range sounds like Cineform's David Newman talking about capturing super whites and super blacks (above 235IRE and below 16IRE respectively).

At $229 it may be worth picking up just for the heck of it. The MR-1000, now at a 33% discount may drop lower. Bigger, but without some of the issues. Or just get the MR-2/MR-2000.

This is a user review at B&H:

A dream come true. 1 bit 2.8mhz is the universal digital format. You can transcode to PCM transparently with only any losses due to inherent resolution limitations of the target format. If that weren't enough, it's dirt cheap and fits in your pocket. I am a total user. In my profession as an interactive training developer for a large drilling company I use it to record narration and other sound for that purpose. As a pro/am location recordist of classical music, pipe organs, and such it's replace the large digital audio workstations I used to lug around. And as an audiophile, I can get near perfect transcriptions of even the finest LP's. And, last but not least, it's an audiophile Ipod I can carry to audiophile gatherings.
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I am from Berlin Germany and thats where this little company started some 20 years ago. I know the owner since then and have been a fan of this little mic since the 90s. The company is in Berlin:
http://www.soundman.de
I have used it with a Sony Dat Walkman and recently with an Edirol R09, the mini stereo jack and the battery powered preamp give a great line output level. They really shine for their "Kunstkopf" type realistic stereo image!! I just looked and they seem to have enlarged their line of mics. These mics were famous among bootleggers who could walk into concerts and record with good quality with these "plugs" in the ears. I used them for "Kunstkopf" recordings in music and film productions.
 
I heard the recording on his site and liked the sound...very innovative! I ordered the MR-1 and thought this would be an interesting complement...recording stereo from my ears in 1-bit 2.8Mhz format.

A UK site sells them, the price didn't seem too bad.
 
I have the Zoom H4 and am not impressed with it, I have not used it with a mixer or external pre amps. Other people here like using it with the 5DII for it's size.

Dan,

Since I rarley use it I can UPS it to you if you want to pay shpping so you can play around with it.
 
Hi Chip:

Thanks for the opportunity but I ordered the H4N this morning. Will let you know how it works out.

Thanks,

Dan
 
The new model is suposed to be A LOT better on the noise side. Let me know how it works for you, I'd like to get something better than the older H4 (that's only used for field notes now).

BTW the 5DII is going to be a sweet camera to use at night in Paris!
 
We'll see. I am holding off on the purchase just until all of the NAB annoucements are out, just in case someone springs something new and monumental. ;-)

Never know in this business, could happen.

Dan
 
Thanks for the tip on Oade, 10s. Unfortunately going back to unbalanced inputs and impedence cable adapters (in my price range, I can't afford the 661) would be a step backwards for me, I am hooked on having XLR inputs and the size, weight and cost of the Zoom was just too appealing. I also listened to several samples I found on-line and I think the quality will be more than adequate for my needs.

Best,

Dan
 
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