Need advice on choosing the right sound recorder / mixer...

David W. Jones said:
I can remember when Ampex came out with Grand Master 499 and I spent a prep day spooling reels for my Nagra. Caught up in the moment of how much better my field recordings would be with this new tape formulation. It's now 2017 and we have affordable 8 track recorders which for all intensive purposes out perform the reel to reel field recorders of the past. And yet I would rather work with a single well boomed and recorded mono track from an old reel to reel, than sort through 8 tracks of poorly recorded mind numbing nonsense from a modern digital recorder. Just saying, track count isn't everything.
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This is what I hear constantly from sound people in post: give us ONE well recorded track rather than 6 poorly done ones. Yet I've been on more than one indie production where the director wants to throw in a lav in addition to the boom mic, plus a mic on the camera - then is surprised that the post people are not happy... the lav has a bunch of clothes sounds, the camera mic track is useless and the boom is hit and miss. Had they concentrated on one well done track, it would have been that much better. [side note: the expression is "for all intents and purposes" not "all instensive purposes" as the latter is an eggcorn :)]
 
Jim Feeley said:
So I still don't think Zoom works for me, but the company did just announce a control surface for the F4 and F8 recorders.

Story is it will be available in January 2017 for US$350 or so.

Pix, specs, etc:
https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/field-recording/frc-8-f-series-remote-controller

View attachment 119018
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Looks like it would be more useful with the F8. Seems kind of silly to pay for those 4 extra useless track controls if you have an F4. Well maybe in the future they will come out with an actual 4 track version.
 
It's the app for the F8 I'm wondering about at the moment...

If you can remotely control the whole device, on either your iPhone or your iPad, I could see that making things very convenient... potentially...

Having a fairly hard time making a decision here. :)
 
graywolf said:
Looks like it would be more useful with the F8. Seems kind of silly to pay for those 4 extra useless track controls if you have an F4. Well maybe in the future they will come out with an actual 4 track version.
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I agree. Which makes me wonder; why not just get an F8? Then you get the remote control functionality on your iPhone / iPad, and get to utilise all 8 track controls on the newly announced F-Control. Unless the F4 provides additional / better features in comparison to the F8?
 
Dave Draper said:
I agree. Which makes me wonder; why not just get an F8? Then you get the remote control functionality on your iPhone / iPad, and get to utilise all 8 track controls on the newly announced F-Control. Unless the F4 provides additional / better features in comparison to the F8?
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The F4 is considerably cheaper. It is somewhat easier to use without added accessories.

That said the F8 with that outboard hardware controller should be a film sound guy's dream come true. If it works as advertised. I am not implying that it won't, the F4 is fine as it came out. The F8 needed hardware and firmware updates before it worked properly, early adopters said. Zoom does seem to be standing behind these machines, the ones with bad hardware were replaced free of charge.

I am very pleased with my F4. A couple of guys here have already used their F4's on real shoots and were pleased with the results. Probably an F8 with an F4 as a back up to the F8, and for smaller jobs, would be a serious alternative to one of the expensive recorders.
 
Dave Draper said:
I agree. Which makes me wonder; why not just get an F8? Then you get the remote control functionality on your iPhone / iPad, and get to utilise all 8 track controls on the newly announced F-Control. Unless the F4 provides additional / better features in comparison to the F8?
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Well the reason would be actual controls rather than virtual ones and a hard connection VS a bluetooth one.

Advantages for both the F4 & F8, a USB keyboard! If you are doing a serious show being able to name the tracks properly is a big deal. Plus you get a number of dedicated buttons that avoid menu surfing.

As skeptical as I am in general about Zoom this seems to signal that they are really taking a serious swipe at getting some pro business.

This box would be almost a necessity for the F8 on a big show, but if inputs 5/6 show up on the faders then it makes the F4 also more functional. I would be tempted and I would not often be in a position to use it! and F4 and the fader control together are less that my Marantz two track recorder was not that long ago, and it was a breakthrough. The controller is really only for cart work but between the ability to use a keyboard and better led metering I think it is close to a must have for working F8/ F4 recordists.
 
Noiz2 said:
Well the reason would be actual controls rather than virtual ones and a hard connection VS a bluetooth one.

Advantages for both the F4 & F8, a USB keyboard! If you are doing a serious show being able to name the tracks properly is a big deal. Plus you get a number of dedicated buttons that avoid menu surfing.

As skeptical as I am in general about Zoom this seems to signal that they are really taking a serious swipe at getting some pro business.

This box would be almost a necessity for the F8 on a big show, but if inputs 5/6 show up on the faders then it makes the F4 also more functional. I would be tempted and I would not often be in a position to use it! and F4 and the fader control together are less that my Marantz two track recorder was not that long ago, and it was a breakthrough. The controller is really only for cart work but between the ability to use a keyboard and better led metering I think it is close to a must have for working F8/ F4 recordists.
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If, as you hope, the faders work with the F4's 5/6 tracks, and the fact it has a Main 1/2 out fader, the thing would be real useful with the F4. I looked in my F4's manual and that info is just how to connect the the controller. I guess we need to see a manual for the controller before we will know what utility it will have for the F4.

And, wouldn't it be sweet if tracks 7 & 8 on the controller could be used for Sub-1/2 out? Think of what that would do for people using it with a DSLR.
 
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Could be the control surface will work with tracks 5/6 on the F4...that'd be kinda neat. But considering the prices we're talking here, even if it doesn't, I can see some F4 owners wanting one.

As for fader apps for tablets and phones, I have mixed experiences. Let's bullet point them.

- I've used an iPad app to control a Allen & Heath Qu-24 in a couple FOH gigs. (btw- the Qu line of mixers are quite nice!). That was great because I could walk away from the mixer, hear how the mix sounded in various parts of the room, and make adjustments from those spots.

- I have to look at the touchscreen when moving faders on a tablet/phone app to make sure my finger stays on the fader I want to control. I much prefer to do things by feel and at least have the options of keeping my head up looking at something else (even if it's just meters). Perhaps I'd get used to the lack of tactile feedback...but I kinda don't think so, especially if the app controls a fair number of channels.

- A friend was doing a gig where he was recording a panel of speakers and then also tasked (at the last minute) with controlling the PA mix. They handed him an iPad to control the physical mixer (can't recall the brand) that was in a locked closet. The mixer app taxed the iPad so much, it overheated and shut down. And they didn't have a key to the closet. So then they had to keep the iPad cool (sorry, I can't recall how they did that) and hope for the best.

So these apps are an evolving technology. Cool supplements, but I sure like to touch actual faders and knobs...

Anyway, good for Zoom.
 
I've got the 633. You'd be good with either the Zooms or the Tascam mentioned. Good operation: setting appropriate levels and choosing the appropriate mic is going to contribute more to your sound than the recorder by a LONG SHOT. Noise floor on a lot of the modern recorders is surprisingly good.

If you really want an SD recorder/mixer, you can often pick up an older one for a song. With an SD unit, you are getting the superb limiters and all the timecode goodness, flexibility around the inputs and outputs, along with the control you get with the sophisticated metering, the ergonomics of the pots, dual recording among other things.

The 633 has 3 pres for mics and the other inputs are line levels that are designed for wireless. This could be quite limiting depending on your typical application.

If you haven't got the budget, you do have lots of good choices as mentioned along with the used market of SD device mixer/recorders.
 
All of this heady talk...

All I do is simple dialog capture for independent shorts and features in the fly-over country of Sacramento (capital of the 6th largest economy of the world, but more like Peoria than Paris). I use my old Marantz pmd661, with a paltry 2 tracks. I record one mic on the two tracks, with one 6db lower than the other.

Once I sprung for better mics, I was really happy with the sound, and I've no complaints from my directors. I've seen many of my films on the big screen at film festivals, and I've not noticed any deficiencies, nor has anyone come up and told me they hated the sound.

I also have an h4, and it's OK, but I like the Marantz's ability to keep the OLED screen on all of the time. I like to check frequently as to volume, time, etc as I'm recording.
 
We've decided to go with the ZOOM F4, and will be receiving it after the 19th. Haven't sourced any SD cards, battery mags, or any other accessories that may be required, but those are next on the list...
 
Now that is insulting to Peoria;~) I have wondered in the past why so many state capitals are not in major cities. Sacramento is the third or fourth CA capital so it's not like we got stuck with a bad early choice.

Anyway, a couple of points. First as a post person I like not getting a ton of tracks. I just got a low budget short and production has 8+ tracks and none of them peak at more than -12 dBfs, most peak at -20 - -30. So lots of tracks and nobody was really listening.

But it is always important to keep in mind that hardly anyone here is doing the same gigs. There are no budget and low budget and people doing run and gun etc. I do a wide range of things and 90% is happy with 2 tracks. The other ones have pushed the edges of my 12 track mixer > laptop system.

There is also a major split when you are doing gigs that really pay. No budget, you can often bring in anything but if they are dropping $650 a day plus gear you better bring something more to the table. On the one hand it's kind of silly because if you are good you can get tracks with your system that are not going to very different than a top of the line kit. Your noise floor is higher and those preamps are going to be a little less "great" but in general ambience is going to mask all of that anyway and your skills will trump equipment any day.

And of course there are those situation where you actually need more tracks. It happens and it can be a big PITA to work around.

The second thing, and maybe these projects have such small budgets that it doesn't apply but, the sound on the screen is not the raw sound you record. Unless you are doing the post sound you probably have no idea how much or little trouble your tracks caused. I have worked on a ton of things and have only met the other 1/2 two or three times (not counting if I did both). So I would put a lot more weight on quality assessments if you had said that post sound editors had liked you tracks. Directors don't generally "complain" they just don't hire you again, and honestly hardly any of them will notice unless they are doing the editing.

Unless the production sound is unusable I'm not likely to make negative comments about production tracks to directors. I would talk to the production mixer but as I said they are usually long gone and I have done enough production to know that most of the time it's not their fault but a bad choice by a director or producer that caused my headache.

And audiences? I have had to leave theatres because the sound was SO HORRIBLE, with wild volume swings, nasty static bursts etc. that nobody bothered to "fix in post" and talked to audience members afterward who didn't notice. On local documentary filmmaker had a lot of those issues on an otherwise good film. I offered to do a cleanup pass for free but he just didn't think it was that bad. He had noise bursts that had people clapping their hands over their ears in the theatre... I always carry earplugs so I didn't have to leave that one.

To be clear you seem to be doing a lot of work so I'm assuming you are providing good tracks.
 
Dave Draper said:
We've decided to go with the ZOOM F4, and will be receiving it after the 19th. Haven't sourced any SD cards, battery mags, or any other accessories that may be required, but those are next on the list...
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Cool! And as you've probably heard/read it's REALLY worthwhile to stick to the list of SD cards that Zoom approves for use in this recorder. Here's the list they updated this month:
https://www.zoom-na.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/pdfs/F4_compatible_cards_E.pdf

Been some good discussion in this thread. Have fun with your recorder.
 
Noiz2 said:
Now that is insulting to Peoria;~)
Anyway, a couple of points. First as a post person I like not getting a ton of tracks. I just got a low budget short and production has 8+ tracks and none of them peak at more than -12 dBfs, most peak at -20 - -30. So lots of tracks and nobody was really listening.
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As everyone always says, it's the painter, not the brush. But ya, seems like creating a good mix track is becoming a lost art, at least at the lower-end of things...
 
Jim Feeley said:
Cool! And as you've probably heard/read it's REALLY worthwhile to stick to the list of SD cards that Zoom approves for use in this recorder. Here's the list they updated this month:
https://www.zoom-na.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/pdfs/F4_compatible_cards_E.pdf

Been some good discussion in this thread. Have fun with your recorder.
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Great advise that should be applied to every piece of equipment that uses recordable media. When I bought my 664 years ago, I bought cards that were not on the approved list(they were still good cards: high speed Lexar Professional) and the MP3's sounded like crap and were messed up(on either type of card you would send them to). Oddly enough the WAV's were fine on either type of card. Called my dealer and talked to SD engineers directly. We concluded that it was the cards. Sent them back to B&H and ordered new CF and SD cards that were approved. Problem solved.
 
When I bought my F4 that list was not out. I bought the 64gb Sandisk card B&H lists with the recorder. It is not on that list, however I have had no problems with it.
 
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