Need a recommendation - onboard - super/hyper/card - $500. - must read!!

G

gl2tony

Member
Hi. Yes I've read all of the stickies. I've spend days reading hundreds of posts about many different mics from this forum and others.

I'm aware that placing a mic on-board is not ideal. The reason I'm posting is because I want to explain my shooting environment, setup, my budget, and get some recommendations.

I'll be shooting indoors in a controlled environment with a GL2 +phantom. Two (2) subjects will be roughly four feet away by four feet wide. For this situation I believe my polar pattern should be either a hyper/super or cardioid. I will occasionally speak during some of my shoots. My budget is up to $500.

I'd appreciate some insight on a few different type of mics I should be looking at.

Here are a couple that I was considering:

MK012 - This thing that scared me away from this mic is the handling noise issues. Being that I'm going 'onboard' I'm afraid this will cause me problems. I was trying to find someone that has mounted a 012 on the camera to no avail.

ME66 - Well, this mic gets mixed reviews. From some I hear this is the best thing since sliced bread. But from others I hear its overpriced and I can get a comprable mic for a lot less. What are those comprable mics that have the polar patter that I need?

How about the AKG Blueline's?


Thanks and I look for to hearing from you..


P.S Booming is not an option..
 
Last edited:
Four feet away is awfully far for any mic to get good sound.

I had an ME66 and was not impressed with it indoors, although outdoors it was great.

If it were me, I'd get a Rode NTG-2, a good boom pole, and a good boom operator. In close, the NTG-2 sounds as good as anything I ever got indoors with the ME66.
 
chapelgrovefilms said:
Four feet away is awfully far for any mic to get good sound.

I had an ME66 and was not impressed with it indoors, although outdoors it was great.

If it were me, I'd get a Rode NTG-2, a good boom pole, and a good boom operator. In close, the NTG-2 sounds as good as anything I ever got indoors with the ME66.
Click to expand...

Thanks chapel! Unfortunately booming is not an option.
 
JordanBlock said:
To be absolutely clear, is this 'a boom op is not an option' or 'anything over the talent is not an option'?
Click to expand...

booming is ok over talent's head. (an operator not stationary) but for cost reasons I need to keep it simple for a while, so no boomer.
 
Last edited:
They will be stationary at times. But the stationary will not work because I need to rotate around the talent from different angles. Sometimes looking up, sometimes down..
 
A decent cardioid overhead on a stationary boom stand (maybe something like this) between the talent would be a better option than on-camera. Perhaps picking up the multi-capsule Oktava package would be a good option for you, I assume the Sound Room still offers a DVX discount.

(on edit) Unless you're doing full circles around your talent, there should be somewhere you could stick a stand. When all else fails, Tape a mic to the ceiling ;)
 
JordanBlock said:
A decent cardioid overhead on a stationary boom stand (maybe something like this) between the talent would be a better option than on-camera. Perhaps picking up the multi-capsule Oktava package would be a good option for you, I assume the Sound Room still offers a DVX discount.

(on edit) Unless you're doing full circles around your talent, there should be somewhere you could stick a stand. When all else fails, Tape a mic to the ceiling ;)
Click to expand...

You know the stand does sound like a good idea but in addition to being seated/laying, etc. my talent might move from their initial position.
 
The only way I know of to get good sound in that case would be wireless lavs. And good ones will exceed your $500 budget.

Does this all have to be done in one single take? If your talent moves, can you cut, reposition the mic, and start shooting again?

You seem to be in a sticky situation here. It just may not be possible to get great sound within the limitations you have.
 
JordanBlock said:
A decent cardioid overhead on a stationary boom stand (maybe something like this) between the talent would be a better option than on-camera. Perhaps picking up the multi-capsule Oktava package would be a good option for you, I assume the Sound Room still offers a DVX discount.

(on edit) Unless you're doing full circles around your talent, there should be somewhere you could stick a stand. When all else fails, Tape a mic to the ceiling ;)
Click to expand...

This stand looks like a great option. Could you bribe a buddy or relative to help you out? They could move the stand with the talent. Just make sure they keep the mic in front of, and pointed at the mouths of, the talent -- not dangling over the tops of their heads.

Good luck!
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here. Okay, not really...

You seem bound and determined to make an absolutely impractical solution work for you, and the fact is that a cam-mounted cardioid (or super- or hyper-) is even worse than a cam-mounted shotgun. Either way, this means that the mic is pointed horizontally, and the purpose for a cardioid of any kind indoors is to be able to reject reflections from the ceiling/walls. Your audio in this case is going to sound pretty much like it's in a box.

Instead of spending that $500 on something that probably won't get you passable results, why not spend less than $100 for this shoot to rent a couple of wireless lav systems? That's really the only way to get mics placed properly, and in a place where the camera can roam and the mics will never be in the way.

You can rent Sennheiser G2 systems on the cheap. Even Lectro units won't cost too much. Either way, you spend a lot less and can then save up for a better solution later.
 
No question, there is no substitute for getting the mic close and therefore a lav might be your best option. But I wanted to mention that I use an AKG blueline with the hyper capsule (CK-93) as on-camera mic and absolutely love it. It´s great indoors and works well outdoors in most situations too. If not, I just slap the shotgun capsule on... It was a big step up from the NTG-2 and only about 200 bucks more. Needs phantom power though...
 
Ok, here goes...

Ok, here goes...

Ok, I'll shed a little light on my situation. I was 'released' from dvinfo.net for even hinting the word 'adult'. I hope this does not happen here, I'm just like everyone else trying to make a living so here goes.

Let's just say the type of films I make are catered to the adult crowd. Understand? So lavs are not practical. Stopping the shot is not practical. And fixed booms will not be ideal. In my industry I estimate less than 10% (90 +/- videos)of the monthly releases boom their shoots and these are the very high dollar productions. The rest of the companies shoot with camera mounted mics and they get the job done nicely. Point taken that everyone here are professionals and want the best results and I can respect and appreciate that! But for my situation, booming is not practical right now.

@mbwkrause Can you let me know the type of environment you shoot in? controlled? I know you said indoors, how is the ambient noise with the CK-93 when shooting dialog? How far away from the talent? In what situations have you had to use the SG capsule?

Thanks!


P.S Dvxuser pls don't ban me it would be very unfair. I understand this is a community and young people might browse these boards. I will never go into details about my work, but it was necessary to explain this to help out with my problem. It was a shame what happened at the (other) board because it was a great resourse.
 
"Controlled environment" in this context would mean acoustically controlled - a soundstage or otherwise heavily sound-blanketed location where sound reflections off of walls and ceilings and leakage of sounds from outside are not a factor. That could give you a bit more working distance. The problem with using a shotgun indoors is due to the way it responds to reflected sounds so if the reflections are eliminated, you can use a shotgun and get a bit more working room. But the bottom line is you can't fool Mother Nature - the physics of acoustics sets limits on what you can do and it's a fact that there is no such thing as a "telephoto lens" for sound - physics simply doesn't allow such a thing to exist.

This type of material is no less scripted and the shots planned in detail in advance than are those in any other sort of movie. Other than those old Super-8 "loops" that were made in the '70s they don't just wing it off-the-cuff with the actors doing their own thing. There's nothing in your scenario that precludes use of a boom unless you simply don't want to pay a sound op, you avoid picking it up in the shot as the camera moves around by pre-planning and rehearsing the camera moves so the boom op can coordinate. At least get the mic off the camera and onto a pistol grtip in the hands of an op to aim it properly so you don't have handling noise to contend with and it points at the sound source instead of being locked into where the lens is looking. Another technique is to include plant mics in the scene as well, say concealed in the lamp on the bedstand, a wired lav mounted in the decorations on the head of the bed, etc.
 
Steve I do sometime add blankets to absorb echos if the acoustics are really bad.

I will agree/disagree with the scripting part. Depends on the company I am shooting for. For my own productions only the first few minutes is lightly scripted. The rest is the actors bringing my general ideas for the series to life.

Ok so everyone is just set on me getting a boom op and this is not what I want right now.
 
gl2tony said:
Steve I do sometime add blankets to absorb echos if the acoustics are really bad.

I will agree/disagree with the scripting part. Depends on the company I am shooting for. For my own productions only the first few minutes is lightly scripted. The rest is the actors bringing my general ideas for the series to life.

Ok so everyone is just set on me getting a boom op and this is not what I want right now.
Click to expand...

It's not that we're set on you getting a boom op ... it's the physical nature of microphones that govern your options and they don't bend to our desires. The fact is that in order to get the sort of pristine sound on human speech that we associate with feature films or network drama dialog, a cardioid mic needs to be within about 8 to 12 inches of the speaker's mouth, a hypercardioid a max of about 24 inches and a short shotgun about 36 inches, and those are maximums in a clean environment. It's not a matter of preference - it's dictated by physical laws as rigid in their application as is the law of gravity when you accidently drop a lens. The same basic distances apply whether you're talking about a $200 Rode mic or a $2500 Schoeps or Neumann. Directional mics such as hypercardioids or shotguns also have a limited dispersion around their axis where the sound pickup is of high quality - about 15 to 20 degrees or so on either side of the centre-line. That means you have to aim them to point within a circle about 6 inches in diameter around the speakers mouth and keep them there as the subject moves. Let the mic point outside the circle and you get noticable shifts in the sound quality. All of this adds up to the fact that if the subject isn't static such as a sit-down interview there must be someone continually adjusting the mic's aim and distance so it stays within those limits for the duration of the scene. If you can come up with other ways to do it, great, but the bottom line is a hypercardiod must be no more than about 24 inches from the sound source, a short shotgun no more than about 36 inches, and both need to be aimed at the speaker's mouth and throat +/- about 15 degrees of dead-centre. Those parameters dictate your options. The issue is not what you want - it's what Mother Nature allows you to have.
 
Last edited:
gl2tony said:
Ok so everyone is just set on me getting a boom op and this is not what I want right now.
Click to expand...

Please don't take offense at what we've been saying here. Honestly, knowing the setup changes things, but you're also talking to a few seasoned recordists around here who know that there's a better way, most of the time. An on-cam mic for any scene that requires dialog of any kind is problematic. As the camera moves, the sound will change... and that's not good.

And I second what Steve posted above. There are physics of sound involved here, and really only a couple of ways to get clear, clean dialog. There are other solutions that aren't as good, but still outweigh on-cam mics for what you're doing.

No, lavs are not practical for your particular productions, in terms of traditional placement. But have you thought about using the lavs as plant mics?

You can easily hide something like a Countryman B6, even in plain sight, buy affixing it to a coffee table, bed frame, even a chandelier. Still not optimal from a sound engineer's perspective, but two wireless lavs can give you coverage over two areas of action.
 
@Steve, thanks for being candid. I can understand now why you mention the boom and placement.

@C2V No offense taken! Like I said in an earlier post, I understand that this board has lots of professionals here.

Now I have to figure out which route to go for my Feb shoot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top