Native 24P/25p settings/problems discussion

Yes... the 24N news would be nice... Did some work with second sound on an h4n with the native 24p checked and it was amazing.... up until there were some shots that required a static scene for a few seconds before movement entered.

I got a card write error and have started to see that it doesn't take much to freeze the whole camera when there is little movement. This is also with a sandask extreme III class 6, so I know it really isnt the card. Love the firmware though. Definitely worth the donation and the loss of mud. Looks like its back to 60i..... it's been a tease ;)

I wonder if it would be easier to attach an articulating screen to a t2i hahaha kidding I love my gh1
 
Anyone who thinks that shooting 24/60i looks inferior to shooting native 24p with this camera, needs to watch Eric Thompson's Red Rock video. This video was shot with bitrate settings of 40,50,70 and NO native 24p! He even used the kit lens for 90% of the video. Yes, he color corrected it but, look at the sharpness and detail and NO mud!

http://www.vimeo.com/12606679



I have been doing native 24p with low bit rate (because that's the only time for me that the camera doesn't freeze on high detailed static shots) versus 24/60i high bit rate tests and I have found, viewing the footage side by side on a 47" LCD flat screen 1080p television, that the 24/60i high bit rate footage has no mud and looks crisp and sharp while the native 24p low bit rate footage has some mud and doesn't look as sharp and detailed. Because of this, I've chosen to shoot my short film using 24/60i with high bit rate settings and since I will be using Premiere Pro CS5 to edit the AVCHD files, I will be able to just drop them right into the timeline.
:nads: The yellow guy represents native 24p and the green guy represents 24/60i. Thank you and good bye.
 
Hey Filmkid....

I agree... that video looks amazing!!! I just hate using neoscene... having to transcode every second of footage I take vs. log and transfer, where I can just cut what I need. It's purely a convenience thing.

Im interested in what you said about using premiere pro.... Can you just drop them into the timeline and get 24fps without using neoscene?? Sounds interesting!
 
I am equally interested in Premiere CS5 if it's true that you can get 24p by just dropping it into a 24p time line and it just recognizes that it is wrapped. I find this hard to believe, but I hope to be proven wrong.
 
Filmkid2003 said:
Anyone who thinks that shooting 24/60i looks inferior to shooting native 24p with this camera, needs to watch Eric Thompson's Red Rock video. This video was shot with bitrate settings of 40,50,70 and NO native 24p! He even used the kit lens for 90% of the video. Yes, he color corrected it but, look at the sharpness and detail and NO mud!

http://www.vimeo.com/12606679
Click to expand...

I have seen that video, but it does not seem razor-sharp to me. The only static scenes which have everything in focus are between 38s and 43s. However, the most important problem is that the author (Eric) uploaded the edited version with lower than 9Mb/s (Mega-bits not bytes!) average data rate. What I would like to see is the original 2-3s clip or few frame grabs of the highest quality. How could you judge the original quality on so low bitrates? You can just speculate that the original quality should be higher, but how much higher? Unfortunately, most of uploaded clips on Vimeo are similar (low bitrates).

I agree that "interlaced" version (wrapped) should be used if the quality is similar to progressive one. At least it offers a way higher level of stability. How is about PAL framerates? I suppose that interlaced "problems" are not so serious, anyway.
 
crunchy said:
. How is about PAL framerates? I suppose that interlaced "problems" are not so serious, anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm running a genuine PAL Camera with C settings and 50i and i cannot see the difference between interlaced and progressive even when the original footage is played with various PC players like VLC, Splash lite and Media Player Classic.

Drop the native footage onto a Sony Vegas timeline and Vegas spits out really nice progressive footage. If i deinterlace with cineform before taking it to vegas there appears to be a downgrade of the contrast edges almost like a sharpening effect, so native 50i is cleaner, but preview understandably stutters.

It does seem like there is a very clean implementation of container wrapping the 25p footage, much much better than what i get from a Canon HF100.

From what i've seen, it look like us PAL users have a simpler choice when it comes to ticking 25pn or leave as 50i.

R
 
Rambooc1, thank you very much on your answer! I already worked on some clips which were progressive, but had interlace flag active. I just marked such clips as progressive and edited in progressive mode in Canopus Neo 2. There were no problems at all.
 
I've had the opposite experience with this- Just the fact that only 24 frames are getting compressed vs 60/50 fields getting compressed you can see how much more bit rate is being applied to Native 24PN- as well 24PN has a better color/spacial information.

I could be wrong on this- However I feel Barry Green could touch on this much better.



Here's what's interesting; filming at 58-60-68 at gop15 24PN ( class 10 sandisk )- If I shoot a very high detail shot on tripod, I will eventually get the write error ( 20 seconds or even longer before stop- sometimes shorter ) Now If I shoot that same detail test but move the camera before the threshold, and keep it moving over that detail, it will never stop.

Now with 24 over 60i I can shoot the same detail for ever on the tripod, however when pan across the detail- i get the write error. So it depends on what your shooting I guess.. Do you film stationary scenery- or do you film shots that have movement.


BTW I have a new codec test chart I made- which is way better at crashing the codec then the star chart- The key is to shoot it bright/contrasty of the monitor- None of my extreme settings have survived this chart.

Here is a link to the 2K chart: http://www.sendspace.com/file/5f0if7

I also posted a sample picture to see the chart. - However download the 2K version from the above link.


Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
 

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To tell you the truth Papa, i'm not seeing any improvement in IQ that i can see beyond 34mbps in 50i or 25p, so i'm kind of settled on the C settings as sweet and reliable and for me, not much point in trying to push harder, 34mbps is taxing on my NLE as it is. I have shot over 300 clips now of very diverse scenarios and yet to get one error, all on class 6 cards (not tried your chart yet).

Mjpeg high bitrates looks to be worth pursuing, have you seen what Martin Koch and Modulr are doing with it here http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=213425&page=3 I think this is of great interest to you as you have done more Mjpeg testing than anyone else.

I'm happy to keep testing for the good of the community here (the more the better) but i'm also looking at other ways to improve the GH1 IQ as things seem to have hit a ceiling with AVCHD.
 
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In every example I've seen posted here, 24P wins over 60i. Barry Green said something about interlaced vs progressive chroma, I think?

So 24P is the ideal framerate, but whether or not you should use it at this point depends on your card.
 
I am equally interested in Premiere CS5 if it's true that you can get 24p by just dropping it into a 24p time line and it just recognizes that it is wrapped. I find this hard to believe, but I hope to be proven wrong.
Click to expand...

If CS4 does it why shouldn't CS5 right?
 
John Caballero said:
If CS4 does it why shouldn't CS5 right?
Click to expand...

No CS4 doesn't, however CS5 does. Not aimed directly at you John, but the guy you're quoting, if you got to the workflow section of the Gh1, there's a few threads that discuss this exact topic. I can also attest that it does indeed remove pulldown. It was one of the major features in CS5 over any previous suite adobe's offered. just get the trial and you can see for yourself.
 
Straight off of the "Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 Native Tapeless Workflow" page:


"AVCHD editing with browsing and metadata support ENHANCED:
Import and edit AVCHD content from Sony, Panasonic, and Canon cameras without waiting. Native editing means you can start editing content immediately without transcoding or rewrapping the content. Use the Media Browser to browse clips and view metadata — including metadata from Panasonic AVCCAM cameras."

Here's the link to the page:

http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/native_tapeless_workflows/


Pretty straight and to the point.
 
I recently got CS5 but my computer is not up to speed to be able to handle it. I am in the process of building a new one. At the moment I use Edius 5 and works fine removing pulldown on the timeline.
 
Just the fact that only 24 frames are getting compressed vs 60/50 fields getting compressed you can see how much more bit rate is being applied to Native 24PN- as well 24PN has a better color/spacial information.
Click to expand...

True. But, none of that matters if I have to go all the way down to "A" settings in order for native 24p to work without freezing my camera up when filming a high detailed static scene. That's why I shoot in 24/60i, because I can shoot any kind of scene I want with the "C" settings without getting any write speed errors on my card. To me, peace of mind during a film shoot is worth more to me than native 24p footage right now. Just my opinion.
 
I agree- frankly both are awesome, and cameras costing many thousands more don't even do 24PN 1080. It's all gravy..

Playing with 64-72-80- gop15 with 60i at the moment.
With 24-over-60i I have increased the bit rate- Trying to find settings that will go the highest. Fails the chart, however real world I have not fully tested with every kind of scenery.

Curious, have we found out what these numbers do? What is the first and last digits function? I assume the middle is the max bit rate-

Pappas
 
agreed.... peace of mind is huge... I think I'll be reverting back to 60i tomorrow too and going out to shoot with second sound to see how syncing it up in cs5 works. I hate to leave fcp7 after taking so long to learn it inside and out.... but I guess any knowledge is good knowledge.

Fact of the matter is... if the firmware somehow gave reliable 24pN footage, I'd switch back in a heartbeat.... till then.... happy shooting!
 
Pappas... any idea where I can learn about the GOP setting... all i've been able to find is that it stands for "group of pictures"

p.s. thanks for all your input man.... and the new "star" chart trips me right out haha
 
Yeah that new Pappas chart is even giving my eyes a workout........... LASIK SURGERY bill coming your way Pappas ....hahaha
 
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