My new children and I learned something new!

You know you can get the overcranking results in post, right? Just retime your 60p footage to 24p and it'll have the same slow-mo effect as an HVX shot at 24pN @ 60fps.
 
Barry_Green said:
You know you can get the overcranking results in post, right? Just retime your 60p footage to 24p and it'll have the same slow-mo effect as an HVX shot at 24pN @ 60fps.
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Haha yeah I do that all the time, I dont' saee what everybody is talking about wanting overcranking. You already have it. lol
 
MattRobertson said:
Haha yeah I do that all the time, I dont' saee what everybody is talking about wanting overcranking. You already have it. lol
Click to expand...
You can even do it with a camcorder that shoots interlaced video only. But you are limited to either 0.5 or 0.4/0.8 rates. Not a true varicam.
 
Jan,

Since there is no Timelapse option in HMC, I shoot long videos in lower mode and crank them fast in Post. But still there is a jumpy motion in final video, this is because there is no slow shutterspeed other than 1/15 a sec. At least 1/4 a sec. is required for timelapse to look smooth in motion.

Is it possible to add some more slow shutterspeed options with update? such as 1/4, 1/8 a sec.
And also any possibility of Timelapse Recording? or a Picture Shot option?
 
Barry_Green said:
You know you can get the overcranking results in post, right? Just retime your 60p footage to 24p and it'll have the same slow-mo effect as an HVX shot at 24pN @ 60fps.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think most of us know but we'd like to have something native :) and something more than 40% slower? :) Ok I may be asking too much but it doesn't hurt to try :)

Native overcranking and time lapse would complete the camera :)
 
RaviSun3D said:
Is it possible to add some more slow shutterspeed options with update? such as 1/4, 1/8 a sec.
Click to expand...
Unless there is a technical reason why this could not be done, I think that alone would be the easiest feature to implement and the most valuable!!! I always wondered why it didn't at least have the 1/6 shutter speed like the DVX. SO valuable having slow shutter speeds for night time lapses.
 
Jan, I'm so happy to see you here with your new stepson, the hmc150. As an owner of one, and a former owner of a dvx/hvx, it will be so nice to have your posts again here directed to a camera I own!

So, to be one of the first to bombard you :) with a feature request. If we could get a 40+mbit mode for class 10 cards, that would be super awesome! Like many codecs, it tends to get a bit blocky between 11 and 25IRE. Some extra bandwidth, would make you a God to us all!

You're obviously going to be learning about a lot of stuff about the camera at Panasonic. But, here's a few observations that may be informative to you. (I totally understand this may just be annoying and may not be helpful, so stop reading and forgive me if that is the case.)

1. In real world usage I've found it to be much sharper than the hvx200 without extra edge detailing.

2. Gain can be pushed to ridiculous levels without much added grain. And it's a law of increasing returns. 3db seems to have 80% of the noise of 6db, and so on.

3. The way the motion is processed in tandem with the codec is just magic. The codec blurs motion during movement, and is nearly impossible to break. The artifacts seem to be most visible in static shots. A REAL plus versus other long-GOP codecs.

The camera is almost a ridiculously perfect fit for freelancers who don't need to integrate into the p2 workflow. For instance, my amongst my circle of filmmaking friends, we rarely work with broadcasters directly. Time and deadlines are not nearly as big of an issue as is for the p2/broadcasting crowd. So transcoding out of long-GOP is not a big deal. We are after quality, versitility, and economy. Long takes are a big plus, and the SDHC cards are fantastic for that. It handles natural light better than anything else I've seen besides the EX1 (but the EX1 doesn't have that cinematic color IMHO). Speaking which, the CCDs are invaluable. With the trend towards CMOS, I hope Panasonic sticks to CCDs as much as it can. They both have different looks, and I'd hate to be stuck in a world with just one option.

The biggest "problem/weakness" with the camera is low frequency noise. I use neat-video and can clean it up to eerie-Clean levels with barely any loss of detail at all (I'd say 5% or less), but it would be nice to get a slightly cleaner source for jobs I can't afford a 40:1 render time for noise reduction.
 
I would also love to see a time-lapse feature become available. I really wish the 150 had it, and never understood why it was not in the design.
 
Arrestthisman

Please can you talk a little bit more about the low level noise that you mention?

I don't have the HMC150 but I am very tempted (I have a really low budget movie to shoot soon). I am trying to understand as much as I can about this cam before I make a purchase - but what I cannot get my head around is the fact that this model seems to be able to produce a lovely 'cinematic' image in some samples that I've seen. Theoretically, the cam can only produce about 600 lines according to forum members, way below other cams but it still manages to look like a quality image and rather rich yet soft and subtle. Is this because it has a lower resolution?

Regards
 
PaulWM:

The CCD on this camera only has a resolution of 960x540 (1/3"), the HD is achieved through pixel shifting, so it will always look softer compare to CMOS or other 2/3" CCD based high end camera.
Also the HVX200 and HPX170 also have same CCDs, so they all looks a little soft. For most people, this camera is probably as sharp as a 720p camera.
For only $3400 and a camera with such good low-light performance, this is the only way Panasonic can achieve "HD" quality.
 
PaulWM said:
Arrestthisman

Please can you talk a little bit more about the low level noise that you mention?

I don't have the HMC150 but I am very tempted (I have a really low budget movie to shoot soon). I am trying to understand as much as I can about this cam before I make a purchase - but what I cannot get my head around is the fact that this model seems to be able to produce a lovely 'cinematic' image in some samples that I've seen. Theoretically, the cam can only produce about 600 lines according to forum members, way below other cams but it still manages to look like a quality image and rather rich yet soft and subtle. Is this because it has a lower resolution?

Regards
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell the low level noise is due to compression, and is present in most forms of compression. I've even seen REDCODE footage with the same type of noise, albiet it is presented in smaller blocks. (It's mostly in sub 25IRE footage, I've found.)

I'd say 600 lines is pretty low. Charts don't tell the whole story, and in my experience, don't tell much of a story at all. (That said, they are necessary to confirm real world observations, and are a good starting point. Also like any diagnostic, the diagnostician is critical to the determination of the legitimacy of the test.) And I don't think it's the softness is what makes it cinematic.

The Panny/film/look is the hardest thing to describe... but I think it's the color, native gamma curves, and most important: they render motion in a way that no other camera(s) seem to be able to replicate.

It's the whole system in tandem. I also think that the DR "appears" higher than other cameras that may test the same latitude.

There is something really special about the panasonic look. Now this is not a spec, a science, etc. It's alll in the eye of the beholder, but it is known as the Panny mojo.

The only reason I sold my DVX100 is because I got an amazing price for it and wanted to move to HD. Because I shoot in low light, and the HVX's achilies heel is low light, it was a bad move, but the HMC150 and the HPX170 rule at low light, so that is fixed.

I'll tell you this much. People upgrade to get "better" footage, but there is something about the pannies that I don't think will ever get replicated.

I've decided, whatever I move to next, I'm NOT selling my HMC150. I'm keeping it forever. Just as David Lynch fell in love with the pd-150 (not even the 170), I feel like HMC150 is the HD DVX100, the HVX was a different camera, the HMC150 is the real sequel.

I always want to be able to have that look available to me. No matter how high resolution goes, DR, improved compression... all cameras have their own look. I've played with RAW cameras, and despite the fact they are all very mailable and can be made to display many different looks, they will always carry some characteristics that define the look of the camera.

So my advice is, if you love the type of cinematic image the pannies display, pick the model that has the right set of features for you, and go for it.

As for me, I think the future is HDSLRs since the tech is moving so fast, but they have CMOS imagers, and no matter how much better the jello and skew improves they will always have a different look. I think they will eventually win the rez/quality/DOF/compression quality and general IQ, plus their size and mods make them ideal for guerilla filmmaking. BUT, I will always have my HMC150, but it have a different look. And I want to pick the best tool for the job.

And that's what a love so much about the HMC150, is that it is never obsolete because its look is so distinct that it's unlikely another cam will have the same look you've fallen in love with. Even the looks between the different pannies are enough.

Sorry this is a rant, but you wanted some info, and the best I can give you is my own experience. I don't purport anything here to be fact, only my observation, and I hope it helps.

Creativity to all, and keep shooting!
 
"Sorry this is a rant"

No, not a rant - you are clearly passionate about this cam. I guess my only question right now then is with such 'low' resolution (though it would still look great on large-ish Plasma or LCD), how would it translate to a big screen? When I finish my project I am hiring at least one venue to show the production to all of the people involved/their families as a thank you. Would it still look ok up there or would the low resolution make it fall apart at that point?

Anyone seen any HMC footage on a big screen - does it hold up?
 
PaulWM said:
"Sorry this is a rant"

No, not a rant - you are clearly passionate about this cam. I guess my only question right now then is with such 'low' resolution (though it would still look great on large-ish Plasma or LCD), how would it translate to a big screen? When I finish my project I am hiring at least one venue to show the production to all of the people involved/their families as a thank you. Would it still look ok up there or would the low resolution make it fall apart at that point?

Anyone seen any HMC footage on a big screen - does it hold up?
Click to expand...

(Thank you for the kind words, I do love the cam, I love cinema, and I love that each filmmaker brings their own individuality to their content, and part of that comes from the aesthetics of the tools. I think that's why it's so important to me.)

So Here I go again!

Delivery!!! Short answer, I THINK it'll look great on a big screen. The question is, how big?

First of all, remember that the DVX100, which is WAY lower rez than the HMC150
looked great on big screens, albeit pretty soft.

A more important thing to remember is that the Varicam has been used on films brought to the big screen. I saw Borat at a HUGE theater. Now remember, that was recorded on a 720p camera, with the DVCPRO HD codec, which is filtered to 960 x 720, and stretched to 1280 x 720 for display.

It looked fantastic to me. It was then that I thought to myself, if I can get even close to this IQ, I can make a great film that not only is "good enough" visually, but could be beautiful. Look at the scenes where they drive the ice-cream truck, and look at the setting sun. Absolutely gorgeous, and at no point did I think anything looked soft. (Also remember the beginning, people, houses... losts of content with fine detail, and it held up as good as film IMO.)

Alot of it has to do with the projector. That is key. I live in Seattle, and occasionally see the Seattle Jewish Film Festival, which screens a lot of films shot on DV, or used to, at least. In another post somewhere on DVXUSER I went into detail about this, but long story short, I talked to the projectionist and he said they rented special projectors just for the DV content... This was at the CINERAMA. DV screened at the Cinerama. No one complained. I asked a lot of people. They noticed the aliasing, which was painfully obvious, other than that though, it was sharp, and plenty good. Not distracting from the content at all.

Last anecdote I'll bother you with: I was invited to a private screening of a film shown at the UW. It was a good theater, not perfect, but a big screen, I'd call it between 15 and 20'. About 200 to 300 seats (could be wrong though). It was a documentary, and there was a lot of b-roll shots (you could tell), but 70% or so was very good, not quite film quality due to latitude, and poor exposure (it was not shot well), but still looked pretty great.

I spoke with the director and asked what they shot with, she said, mostly an F900, and FX1 for b-roll. It all came together for me because it did have that f900 look. It has a motion cadence that's kind of... off. It just looks more videoey to me than the varicam. My opinion, not bashing the f900, George Lucas knows more than me. :)

I then asked what the delivery format was. It was clearly a digital projector, but I would have thought they'd have a jpeg2000 setup, or something high quality-proprietary. She said, "No we just used a DVD for this."

I nearly fell over. I said, "you're kidding." So anamorphic 720 x 480 compressed to hell on DVD, and it looked great.

Also, most people agree the HVX200 looks pretty damn good on the big screen. I don't care what the specs say, the HMC150 looks sharper to me. Maybe it's because of the full raster-codec. Who knows, but I'm not the only one to notice it.

So when you say "will it look good with such LOW resolution," it's not that low.

Remember, the hmc150 records in either 1920 x 1080 or 720p. No filter like DVCPRO HD or HDCAM. The CCDs in spacial offset output an effective REAL resolution of 1440 x 810. That's a real 1440x810, it's not fake, or uprezzed, interpolated or anything like that. From that, it gets blown up to 1920x1080p in the DSP where all of the processing and Mojo goes on.

So to get the full rez of the camera, you need to record in 1080p, but 720p does capture "most of it." Consider, though, that 1080p records far more color information. Since the codec is 4:2:0, you only get 1/4th the chroma of the image. It doesn't make a huge difference when watching, except for the edges, and of course the biggest issue is greenscreening. Buit, there's a lot of processing that can minimize the problems of a low chroma codec. Transcoding 1080p 4:2:0 into a 4:2:2 720p codec yields excellent results.

So I hope this helps. I cannot tell you anything with certainty about a project you have yet to shoot, at a theater I don't know. But I hope these examples give you an idea of if you can reach your goal with this camera or not.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that 1/3" sensors (even though panasonic has made these things ridiculously clean), don't have the low noise of 2/3" sensors. I DO NOT WORK FOR NEAT VIDEO fyi, but for large presentation, my personal biggest worry is noise and compression artifacts. Neatvideo is a plugin that can make your footage virtually noise-free and keeps like 95%+ of your resolution and detail. I highly recommend it especially for low light photography. The caviat is that the render time is insane, but for a feature, you set it up, let it run for a few days, and you have a drastically cleaner picture. (It also does image sharpening, so if the image looks soft to you, it can add artificial detail [not good for projection, but it's there if you need it] and it WILL look sharper.)

With all of this, though, I have not personally seen the hmc150 on a plasma larger than 50" and a projector of 7'. Both looked WAY sharper than expected (and the test scene was a wide-shot). I believe it will look great on a big screen, but cannot say for sure, because the largest I've seen is 7'. There have been filmout tests done, if you look around the boards you may find someone who can tell you. Every eye is different, though. I have talked to people to think anything less than a 4k film scan has no place on a big screen, and others who adored INLAND EMPIRE at the theater.

So once again. I hope this helps. I hope this post wasn't too short... lol.

Cheers.
 
All of your information is very useful indeed so thank you. I cannot find anyone locally that owns an HMC so it is impossible to do any tests. However, I think that I will take the plunge anyway - SDHC without an adapter, lightweight cam, lovely wide angle, 3 chips, XLR's - and a great price. All too tempting. I know it is going to be a big step up from my faithful old VX2100 and will take some getting used to.

I will now go and check out Neatvideo!
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
Hi all,

I am now the proud step-mom of the AG-HMC150, the HMC40 and the HMC70. The Product Manager that was watching over these, retired yesterday after 33 years of service to Panasonic. Sorry to see him go, but happy for him. And well I have more toys to play with. ;-) Hmm, maybe I shouldn't call my children toys? ;-)

So within 24 hours I have learned something new and need to share. There is an upgrade over on the Panasonic support desk:
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/cs/csregistp2m/ep2main/soft/upghmc150_e.htm

This allows for the HMC150 to record to Class 10 cards. It solves a couple of other issues as well. You can download the software to your HDD and then unzip to an SDHC card and do the upgrade that way or you can connect to the PASS system and do it live. Either way I think this is a good thing to do and be proactive on.

I have yet to come up to speed on the product but will be reading what is going on here and pitch in as I can.

Best,

Jan
Click to expand...

I already have version 1.20 firmware running on my HMC-150.

Is this the latest firmware available ? (meaning, does 1.20 support Class-10 cards?)

Thanks!
Randy
 
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