my honest impression

[Barry_Green]

This is actually not true. On the H1, you cannot use the MAGNIFICATION focus assist while recording, you have to pause the recording to use it.

That's what I was referring to. All three cameras have peaking, which can be active at all times (well, on the FX1 at least it makes you choose whether you want peaking or zebras, for some reason you can't have both; don't recall if the Z1 lets you have peaking and zebras simultaneously).

So I was speaking specifically of the magnified focus assist.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Elton, if you can, please post some 24F day shots with motion and turn the detail down a bit as well. Possibly children on a playground or something of that flavor.

Don't get me wrong, the clips look gorgeous, but there's something about the way 24F handles motion, I guess you'd call it "videoish" looking yes.

There is some noise on the little girls jacket as well but nothing to gawk at. I'm not sure if it's just mental or not or if i'm the only one seeing this effect but I notice it when compared to the night footage Kaku took for example of the kid with the light saber. It just has a different "feel" to it both gamma and motion wise. Never the less, great stuff Elton! =)

 

[mmm]

...and the latitude has shown to be more than a little lacking.

...By no means would that sell me on an H1 (the dynamic range is just too lacking)...

What footage is that based on? Some of the first I saw looked like it lacked DR, but I think it was just overexposed.

Have you shot stuff yourself? I would be really interested to see a demo of the cameras latitude if you have any.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Barry, I too noticed some ghosting with the XLH1, but that was without a 35mm adapter. Of course, this could have been an issue with the viewfinder, I couldn't very well record some footage and play it on anything other than an XLH1.

As I've said before, I wasn't too happy about 24F, it looked strange. It was like it wasn't exactly that 23.-"something" frame rate used for 24p, ya know? But that doesn't mean I wouldn't get an XLH1 if I wanted one, 24F looked way better than Cineframe 24. However, don't flame me or nothing guys, but to me, JVC's HDV 24p solution looked a lot better than the XLH1's 24F. But then again, I played with the HD100U's at NAB last year and had some time to look at them versus the few minutes I had in the store with the XLH1.

In any case, all should be revealed in the shootout.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

The thing that bothers me about the XL H1 besides the 24F motion is the chromatic abberation. It's been evident in a few stills I've seen and that's just ridiculous. The H1 will cost you about $3,000 more than the HVX and Canon can't even give you a decent lens to go with that price tag? Never the less like I've said the low light capabilities are awesome and the H1 seems to produce less noise than the HVX. It seems that the two cams are quite closely matched.

 

[Mediacre]

This is a difference between an ENG/news-style lens focus, and a cine-style focus. ENG lenses have short focus travel, cine lenses have much longer focus travel. The HVX uses cine-style (although without hard stops of course).

That's also the difference between a manual lens and an auto lens. The XL2 stock lens behaves the same way. I guess all prosumer lenses can be called Cine Style from now on. It's a nice way to look at it.:laugh:

 

[stokestack]

I notice something in this thread that is refreshing. Unlike the forums at DPReview or Epinions, a guy can actually air some criticisms here and not get attacked by a bunch of babies who can't stand having their expensive toy put down. I guarantee the first response to this at DPReview would've been, "Shut up, JVC fanboy! Troll! You just don't understand it! Buy a point-and-shoot!"

So kudos.

 

[Elton]

That's what I was referring to. All three cameras have peaking, which can be active at all times...So I was speaking specifically of the magnified focus assist.

One thing you might be interested to find on the H1:

You can't roll HDV tape while using magnification focus assist, but your live SDI/ComponentHD Analog signal is actually 2x magnified, so on a set with an HD monitor, you can REALLY know if you're in focus. Not that you would record while magnified...kinda weird but might be useful for some tethered shoots.

 

[Emanuel]

Elton, if you can, please post some 24F day shots with motion and turn the detail down a bit as well. Possibly children on a playground or something of that flavor.

Grateful and, please, of course.

Don't get me wrong, the clips look gorgeous, but there's something about the way 24F handles motion, I guess you'd call it "videoish" looking yes.

Yup

There is some noise on the little girls jacket as well but nothing to gawk at. I'm not sure if it's just mental or not or if i'm the only one seeing this effect but I notice it when compared to the night footage Kaku took for example of the kid with the light saber. It just has a different "feel" to it both gamma and motion wise.

:thumbup:

Never the less, great stuff Elton! =)

Useful as usually.

 

[Elton]

The thing that bothers me about the XL H1 besides the 24F motion is the chromatic abberation. It's been evident in a few stills I've seen and that's just ridiculous. The H1 will cost you about $3,000 more than the HVX and Canon can't even give you a decent lens to go with that price tag? Never the less like I've said the low light capabilities are awesome and the H1 seems to produce less noise than the HVX. It seems that the two cams are quite closely matched.

I've seen CA in some HVX material too. Nothing's perfect in this category. If you really need it, you can put a better piece of glass in front of the H1. There's a manual zoom and wide angle coming.

 

[Emanuel]

...does it look too "videoish"? Initially I was concerned that dark scenes might get a little slurry and electronic looking (e.g. Collateral) but for me, that fear has been laid to rest.

Remember, this is just naked, fresh-out-of-the-box stuff. There were no image tweaks done whatsoever.

In order to film-look, with a progressive cam...GY-HD100 comparatively, do you need any image tweaks, for instance?...

 

[Elton]

Emanuel,

I think the chroma settings are too conservative, particularly with Cine gamma on the H1. I think this camera can create just as pleasing a look as any other, but it requires a little bit of trial and error before you find a sweet spot.

This all just in HDV. In SDI acquisition, you may want to acquire a little flatter, because you will have more latitude with a better codec in post.

 

[Stevet]

Elton,
The XLH1 is an awesome camera. I've seen the stuff you posted. It's looks good.
Night shots like that are really revealing, and the Canon held up well and so did the codec.

Even if the H1 has some CA, it sure makes up for it with excellent resolution.


Steve

 

[Emanuel]

Thanks Barlow for your answer, expert one as well. I just can agree with you! My only concern is that JVC progressive footage seems to me better than any other cam that I saw (XL-H1 & HVX included). Maybe because both have 24 frames@interlaced native mode?

But regarding 720p vs. 1080i (24p or 24F), the question is: Will it be enough @big_screen for a 35mm film-out? Or there, it will need for more resolution, Canon's for instance? (Yes, Stevet, it's a great cam, indeed!)

 

[Elton]

I think they're all enough for 35mm out, but IMHO, there will be very fine details in 1080 24f material that may contibute to an overall sharper looking transfer.

But of course, sharper isn't everthing. It looks like the HVX can have very rich color, but so can the H1, if you know what you're doing. Resolution matters, but so do many other factors. I'm not sure any of these cameras are going to COMPLETELY lose their inherently electronic look, even transfered to film.

Why worry about film? If you're movie gets theatrical distribution someone else with deeper pockets will pick up the tab. I would worry more about how good my HD DVD is going to look from these cameras.

 

[Elton]

Here's how I would rate the contenders as of today, in regards to film-like qualities.

Best Motion: HD100

Best Color: HVX

Best Resolution: H1

Best creative options: HVX

Best Film-like record times: HVX

 

[Emanuel]

Here's how I would rate the contenders as of today, in regards to film-like qualities.

Best Motion: HD100

Best Color: HVX

Best Resolution: H1

Best creative options: HVX

Best Film-like record times: HVX

:thumbup:

My pool except regarding HD100 that wins in another silent category: Best Film-look (that is, the sum of the five, that is, more similar to film, that is, more filmic/real progressive, maybe your above-mentioned progressive assessment will be the most cinematic/important one).

The doubt: 720p & its camera department performance (for instance, XL-H1 comparatively) will it be enough to 35mm film-out@big_screen?

Why worry about film? If you're movie gets theatrical distribution someone else with deeper pockets will pick up the tab. I would worry more about how good my HD DVD is going to look from these cameras.

So much, my dear Barlow. It's 100% of my shooting work... I follow your point and that's why maybe I can go first to 25p (I'm in Europe as you well know) and to leave the 24 frames just after, solving the pitch hassle there. DVD - SD & HD - it will be important but I must be there with the cinematic stuff and not with the videoish look non-narrative that I don't need!

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Elton, I must ask, if you see the HVX winning in so many aspects, why'd you purchase the H1 instead then?

 

[Elton]

Elton, I must ask, if you see the HVX winning in so many aspects, why'd you purchase the H1 instead then?

1) I **WORK** in video production, so P2 and the smaller form factor are hindrances.

2) Everything in color is adressable with the H1.

3) The jackpack is a big plus

4) Killer resolution

5) Low light performance

6) 24F is plenty good

7) Interchangeable lens

8) Telephoto applications

9) Killer resolution

10) Looks. Say what you will, but most paying clients will think it's reasonably professional looking, whereas they would scratch their heads and eyes would glaze over when you attempt to explain the superiority of frame-discrete DVCPRO HD and variable frame rates, and the joys of tapeless acquisition. They'll just think P2 is a PITA and that the HVX is a funky, fat handycam...and will wonder what they're paying for. Fair or not. Hire Definition...pshaw!

11) The shoulder mount. The combination of the excellent optical stabilization and the shoulder rest mean I can have very steady hand-held shot for much longer periods of time. With the HVX you need one of those funky stabilizer doo dads.

12) My belief that it's a better engineered product. I also believe Canon doesn't have a virtual ceiling for it, whereas I have my suspicions over just HOW GOOD Panny really wants their little cam to be. I think the issues with the HVX (noise, disappointing rez) have origins that go beyond mere engineering challenges.

*Superstitious*

14) I can shoot gorgeous HD with a $4 tape...for an hour.

15) Did I mention killer resolution?


The only things I feel I'm missing out on with the HVX are the SELECTABLE (NOT VARIABLE!!) frame rates and 60p. I like the lucid look of 60p, but I think the H1 can be interpolated to this resolution and temporal quality fairly easily. Still, it would be nice to have my "reality" looking video to be progressive.

I also think HVX owners are going to overuse their creative options (under-overcrank) Some of these looks will quickly become cliche'. A lot like people went nuts with multiple fonts in documents. Remember, this is a democratized technology, and with that freedom amateursim can quickly follow.

 

[mmm]

I also think HVX owners are going to overuse their creative options (under-overcrank) Some of these looks will quickly become cliche'. A lot like people went nuts with multiple fonts in documents. Remember, this is a democratized technology, and with that freedom amateursim can quickly follow.

Definately!

Wait for the films shot entirely in 60p! It will be so artistic:grin: It is a handy feature to have though and the one thing holding my interest in the HVX.