my honest impression

[Barry_Green]

That is something I should understand, though I expected the HVX's HD image on its LCD somewhat looked sharper and crisper than the DVX's SD image on its LCD. It didn't to my eye, sadly. Is that exceptional that the one I used was pre-production model or something? I think I must check it with the store.

It's the same LCD panel. You're not going to see more than 210,000 pixels of sharpness on a 210,000 pixel LCD.

Even the displayed info (eg. timecode) looked blurry. Is this the case even with your model (pre or production model), Barry?

Nope. The text on the LCD is razor-sharp, crystal-clear. It looks exactly as sharp as the text on the 100B (although they appear to use slightly different fonts, I think). So I don't know what to tell you on that front... let me throw out the obvious though -- were you looking at blurry text in the VF? Because the VF needs to be focused for your individual eyesight... I'm sure you already know that, but I'm just throwing it out there because it's the only thing I can think of that would explain the discrepancy. The text on my HVX's LCD is pristine and razor sharp.

And because I'm thinking to use HVX (Yes! and I mean it. Yes) with mini35s, if you could try that out that would be greatly helpful.

The HVX is the only high-def camera that can properly and reliably be used with the mini35. Look at the stills I posted (and the moving video) of how hard MPEG-2 chokes on the HD100 with a mini35 and you'll understand why.

 

[stephenlnoe]

The HVX is the only high-def camera that can properly and reliably be used with the mini35. Look at the stills I posted (and the moving video) of how hard MPEG-2 chokes on the HD100 with a mini35 and you'll understand why.

There are quite a few people working with the HD-100 and the mini35 on production HD-100 cams right now.

Please do not make it sound like it can not be used with the HD-100. It is being used successfully. There have been many discussions about its' use with the HD-100 over on dvinfo.net.

 

[jdv]

How'd you like the JVC?

How'd you like the JVC?

As some of you already know, I had to make a decision between the HVX200 and HD100 for an upcoming project.

Neopics - did you experience any of the other problems commonly reported w/the JVC100? Specifically the SSE problem...

Also, did the camera 'wow' you in any way? Thanks, John

 

[Barry_Green]

There are quite a few people working with the HD-100 and the mini35 on production HD-100 cams right now.

I'm sure there are many people using it. And I sincerely hope they don't get bitten by the nasty shadowing artifact that it exhibits.

Didn't happen in all circumstances; but when it did it was absolutely unacceptable. That's why I put in the words "properly" and "reliably". Having shot with it, I can say that I do not trust it on HDV and I would never do it again.

 

[Neopics]

One question, did you drop off the EVS list and if so were you lower than number 46?

Actually, I was number 2 on the list for my dealer here in Burnaby, BC. It's a real bummer how bad the timing was, but Panasonic Canada can't give the dealer a more solid answer that I can schedule around. "Hopefully 2nd week of February" was too vague, when I already had shooting pushed to end of January. Had they said "definitely 2nd week of February" I would've held out.

 

[Neopics]

Neopics - did you experience any of the other problems commonly reported w/the JVC100? Specifically the SSE problem...

I saw the SSE the moment I switched it on for the first time. At that stage, it was in full auto, full gain, and not warmed up. Once I put it into manual settings, set the white balance, and locked the gain at 0db, I never saw it again, despite trying all kinds of challenging framing. I'm expecting it may recur at some point, but I'll know better once I've had it a while.

Also, did the camera 'wow' you in any way?

Definitely, mainly in the form factor and handling. I've used some pretty hefty shoulder-mount cameras in my time as well as the "in-front" handycam style. I definitely prefer the shoulder mount for hand held -- a welcome return. And the feel of the lens is exquisite.

It's a really nice looking camera. It impresses people. Needless to say, that means squat on the screen, but it can help "sell" clients.

I've also been "wowwed" by some of the footage posted on-line, hence why I considered it in my backup plan. The image quality (colour, resolution, latitude and lack of noise at 0db) is wonderful. I spent an hour or so finding my prefered image settings. (For instance, setting Detail to "MIN" helps minimize aliasing and edge enhancement so it looks less video-ish.)

The only drawbacks I've found so far are with the lens. The breathing I can live with, but the CA is bothersome. Otherwise, I like the image it produces.

 

[jdv]

Neopics - Thanks for the info. Just a couple of more questions:

1. Would you buy it again (even assumming you need it immediately)?

2. Where did you buy the camera from?

3. Do you know if it was a newer issue of the camera?

Thanks again,

John

 

[greenheron]

I am really tired of all the misinformation and bias on this forum.

Barry when you state that the HVX is the only camera that can be properly used with the mini35 that is just personal opinion not fact. Have you shot with the HVX and a mini35 and recorded footage and tested the outcome?

You also keep stating that the Sony HDV cameras will not allow AF assist while recording. The Z1 will definitley allow AF assist while recording. Please keep the facts straight. If you want to praise the HVX, be my guest. I think it is going to be a great camera for specific uses. I may even purchase one. But, there is no reason to slam other cameras just to build up the HVX.

Sounds to much like you have a personal bias here.

 

[Neopics]

1. Would you buy it again (even assumming you need it immediately)?

That's a tough question because there are other reasons why I'd rather have the HVX instead. I do a lot of special effects work, so the variety of frame rates, intervalometer and single frame recording of the HVX200 are very appealing to me. Same for 4:2:2 colour sampling. I also loath tape-based recording. The sooner I can move away from it the better. So, given the opportunity and money, I would still prefer the HVX despite some of the current complaints flying around.

That said, I would never tell someone to avoid the HD100. It has its share of quirks, but some really great qualities as well. Just depends on what style of shooting you prefer, and what kinds of projects you'll be doing.

2. Where did you buy the camera from?

My local CineQuip White dealer (Burnaby, BC). Good price, I think -- $5,700.

3. Do you know if it was a newer issue of the camera?

They didn't say. Not sure where to look to find out. (I have the camera with me right now but the box is at work.)

 

[esperman]

"Barry when you state that the HVX is the only camera that can be properly used with the mini35 that is just personal opinion not fact."

Hi Greenheron. Have you shot a 35mm adapter with yourZ1? How did the compression handle it? There is some nice 35mm hvx footage here: http://www.redrockmicro.com/footage/HVX200/HVXTEST_BIG.wmv
but FYI its shot SD with on a prepo model. Looks promising!
From footage I have seen (not shot) HDV hasn't impressed me...but I'll keep an open mind until I personally shoot footage. I won't buy ANY camera until I have tested it/compared it...including HVX200.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Well, HDV is great, don't get me wrong. It's much better than Mini-DV in terms of resolution and overall look, but it's a little quirky at the moment. This is just the first generation of consumer/prosumer HD video, HDV will get better than it already is. When it comes to the HVX200, that's a different story since it isn't HDV at all and is really a watered down professional full-on HD camera. The quality difference is a lot better in terms of filmmaker standards, but for everything else, it's just as good as any HDV camera, don't worry about it people. I don't think the studios care much if you use a Varicam or a Sony F950 for a TV show or movie, just as long as it looks good. Same thing with all these HD cameras, I don't think they'll care if it's HDV or DVCPRO-HD, just as long as it looks good.

But anyways, I don't think this thread was meant to talk about the JVC HD100U versus the HVX200, anybody else play around with an HVX200 yet? What's your honest first impression?

 

[Jarred Land]

when we did the shootout with the JVC and HVX last month I must admit I didnt find the JVC that bad.. i mean we only shot for 2 days and we got the split screen error and that scared the hell out of me, and the lens was such garbage I couldnt tell if i was zooming or focusing half the time,. but it in no way was even remotely as horrible as what happened to some of the enviroments we shot with the Sony. I hated just using the Sony... almost every aspect of it.

The JVC though, wasnt as bad as I thought in terms of usability. It has a pretty cool Autofocus assist mode which is straight out of the matrix, and the actual feel wasnt so bad.

just my opinion... I imagine that the JVC with a 35mm adapter could very well make a nice image if you could tweak the ground glass to spin at the right speed that wouldnt interfere with the codec.

 

[DPwannaB]

2 things...for those of you comparing these cameras in a store but looking at the output to a monitor please remember one thing...HDV looks different from what the camera is outputting and what is put on tape! Just keep that in mind when you are comparing the overall quality of the images...

This may seem like a stupid question but when you all say "focus assist" you are refering to the maginification function during focusing, NOT auto focus, correct? It is a shame they couldn't cram a HD LCD or Viewfinder into the camera...after all that's what your shooting...Keeping the price down must have been the main issue...

 

[brianluce]

Hey all


I went into my local shop the other day and had a good hour or two fiddling with HVX, the fat boy. They have HVX and JVC HD100 next to each other and both are connected to Panasonic HD LCD monitor LH1700W. What I found about is as follows:

* LCD is über low rez that looks like you fed composite signal to 320x240 (or lower) cheep LCD. Even if you turn on EVF DTL on, you never know if it's in focus or not especially at wide end.

* FOCUS ASSIST does kinda work. But again, due to low rez LCD you'll get frustrated.
Personally I find HD100's FOCUS ASSIST much much much beetttter and with its manual lens focusing is purely an enjoyment.

* This is minor, but on LCD the left and right edge has weird pink and green fringe. Anyone remember that DVX100(non-A/B) had pink line on left edge and black line on the right with its native footage? It looks exactly like that.

* EVF has somewhat better rez than LCD. (it was vice versa in case of DVX100, I think)

* Comparing both HVX and HD100 operation-wize, focus ring traveling is much longer on HVX thus it makes harder to focus quickly. HD100 is *snappy* or *pops* into focus but with HVX, you endlessly turn focus ring with its LCD (or even EVF).

* The fat boy is really fat. I don't think I can hold it handheld long enough. I've been using a shoulder rig anyway with my DVX, but with HVX's low rez LCD, I definitely need good external LCD mounted on the rig - if only HVX had a shape of HD100 :undecided

* PICTURE - To my eye both of them are not so different in terms of perceptive definition. Remember both of them are connected to 1280x768 LCD side by side.
In fact, at the tele end with shallow dof, HD100 pops in focus very nicely but HVX creeps (with longer traveling ring) in-focus area and you're not kinda sure where's in focus - which made me think HVX has slightly lower definition than HD100. BTW, I could not distinguish HVX's 720p and 1080i picture on LH1700W's 1280x768 panel.

* Digging into menu, I found that focus ring can be assigned to be IRIS ring. This could be great when using mini35 variants with shoulder mount rig because once you focus GG, you never touch it again and camera iris is the one mostly accessed - with large *IRIS ring*, it's very easy to blind touch and change the iris ! However, this function only works when the camera is in AUTO FOCUS, and I'm not sure if the camera is wise enough not to focus away from GG.



I have been one of many who expected really much from HVX.
The concept of P2 workflow is superb and I'd really like to jump into the bandwagon asap.
But, by analyzing Kaku's footage extensively (Yes I'm on a Mac and I watch them on 23" Cinema), and operating a camera in person (OK it's only an hour or two, I know I can't judge anything with that little time), I am thinking now again.

I honestly hope panasonic is aware of the issue and improve the camera further on the second batch.




Well, I think I'm getting one anyway soon, to be extremely honest with ya all :cheesy:

I like this post. It just shows the the HVX is suffering from a major case of overhyping. There is no way any camera can live up to the amount of hype this cam has received. it's not gonna be as good as the sx900 or the varicam or an imax. it's a 6000 dollar camera. but the bottom line is saru still plans to get one anyway. he just now has a more real world opinion about it.

okay, i'm getting off my soapbox now because i want to read the hvx brochure for the 500th time....and that's 500 times in the last 24 hours. I just know there's some hidden golden nugget of info about a feature I didn't know it had...

 

[Elton]

With the HVX you can be using the focus assist while recording (something Canon and Sony don't let you do, and something that's absolutely crucial)..

This is actually not true. On the H1, you cannot use the MAGNIFICATION focus assist while recording, you have to pause the recording to use it. However, the PEAKING function works quite well while recording, plus you can make the EVF black and white, which can help somewhat.

btw, if any of you are interested, here are a few clips I took Fri. night with the H1. I was testing low light capability. They are all 24F, 1/48th, -3db, manual mode using manual focus. The peaking focus assist helped me in these conditions.

www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

Mac: VLC player
PC: VLC or latest WMP

Comments?

 

[saru]

Nope. The text on the LCD is razor-sharp, crystal-clear. It looks exactly as sharp as the text on the 100B (although they appear to use slightly different fonts, I think). So I don't know what to tell you on that front... let me throw out the obvious though -- were you looking at blurry text in the VF? Because the VF needs to be focused for your individual eyesight... I'm sure you already know that, but I'm just throwing it out there because it's the only thing I can think of that would explain the discrepancy. The text on my HVX's LCD is pristine and razor sharp.

Then something was definitely wrong with the HVX I used.

The text was blurry on the LCD (Not EVF), and also the image.
No matter how I tried to pull the focus, I got frustration.
Okay, by using the focus assist (image magnification feature, for those who are not familiar), I was able to guess the focus, but as I said in the first post, the image on the LCD looked like some bad composite signal fed into cheep 320x240 LCD.

Searching around, I found a thread titled "HVX LCD screen not up to par?"
This guy must've seen same problem as me.

Though I can't find it anymore, I've also seen another post elsewhere where someone mentioned *blurry-timecode-text-on-the-LCD* problem.

Having all said that, I'm pretty sure this is minor issue (in terms of the quantity that have bad LCD panel, estimating by the number of the reports we've seen) with the 1st batch, subject to be fixed with the 2nd. (and Barry, you are lucky enough not to have got those bad ones :laugh



Elton, thanks for the footage. I'm dl.ing now :thumbup:

 

[Mr. Blonde]

This is actually not true. On the H1, you cannot use the MAGNIFICATION focus assist while recording, you have to pause the recording to use it. However, the PEAKING function works quite well while recording, plus you can make the EVF black and white, which can help somewhat.

btw, if any of you are interested, here are a few clips I took Fri. night with the H1. I was testing low light capability. They are all 24F, 1/48th, -3db, manual mode using manual focus. The peaking focus assist helped me in these conditions.

www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton

Mac: VLC player
PC: VLC or latest WMP

Hi Elton, your clips show some great low light capability from the H1, but I must say, the rumors that I keep hearing and the footage that is coming through on the H1 shows me that it handles motion in 24F quite poorly.

Many have said that the 800 lines that the H1 resolves in a still setting are greatly diminished when it comes to a moving image. I believe that Canon was hoping to win sales by bragging about its 800 line resolution and figured that most would see this as the H1's true resolving power, not taking into account the interlaced motion problems that may be present in Canon's 24F system.

All this is specualtion ofcourse because it has yet to be "professionaly tested" but I too am noticing this phenomena as well. The shootout should be quite interesting indeed! :thumbsup:

 

[Elton]

Hi Elton, your clips show some great low light capability from the H1, but I must say, the rumors that I keep hearing and the footage that is coming through on the H1 shows me that it handles motion in 24F quite poorly.

Thanks for the comments, Mr. Blonde!

To retort:

The more I use 24F, the more I am really impressed. Not sure what you found objectionable in the motion...does it look too "videoish"? Initially I was concerned that dark scenes might get a little slurry and electronic looking (e.g. Collateral) but for me, that fear has been laid to rest.

Remember, this is just naked, fresh-out-of-the-box stuff. There were no image tweaks done whatsoever.

You know, if you step through everything frame by frame, you might run into the slightest looking deinterlace artifact, (I think it's true that it does some kind of 48i to 24p thing) but I think it's really tough to point out, and we all watch moving pictures, don't we?

Hard to beat that resolution, though. Massaging in post might be needed however.

 

[Haakon]

Honestly, I think Elton's footage looks really good. I still don't think the H1 has nearly as nice colors as the HVX (or even DVX, for that matter), and the latitude has shown to be more than a little lacking. But that's how blacks should look on these cameras, that's how noise should look, and that's how the cameras should handle low light situations.

By no means would that sell me on an H1 (the dynamic range is just too lacking), but it certainly shows what a 1/3" HD chip is capable of - and what, I believe, we should rightfully be holding the HVX up to in terms of noise and low light performance. It really shows off that resolution, too.

I hope they've taken care of that weird artifacting issue...

 

[Barry_Green]

Have you shot with the HVX and a mini35 and recorded footage and tested the outcome?

Not yet, as the connector kit isn't available. But I've used the Pro35 on the VariCam, which uses the same codec, and I've used the mini35 on the DVX, which uses a similar frame-based compression system.

I've also used the mini35 on the HD100 and seen disastrous results, as well as heard reports from another HD100 user (nateweaver) who said that the artifacting made the system much less than satisfactory. And I've heard reports from Macgregor using a home-brew mini35 style device on the Sony and complaining that there are too many artifacts and that he won't be using it again. And I've heard from someone testing the XLH1 with the mini35 right now that there is also a ghosting issue going on with that camera.

Sorry guys, I don't just fly off the handle and invent stuff, I wait until I know what I'm talking about before saying it.

You also keep stating that the Sony HDV cameras will not allow AF assist while recording. The Z1 will definitley allow AF assist while recording. Please keep the facts straight.

I want nothing but the facts kept straight. Can you please tell me when I ever said anything about autofocus (presuming that's what you mean by "AF"?) I'm talking about the magnified focus assist. And no you absolutely cannot use it while recording.

If you want to double-check those facts and get back to me, I would be grateful to be corrected on anything that I'm actually getting wrong.