My first non-controllable Skew situation - ugh!

nedcam

nedcam

Well-known member
Been a couple of months now and I have had many different types of 300 shoots, thought I had skew control figured out. But...yesterday I was put into a situation where I really saw it and try as I might I couldn't control it. Fortunately there was no monitor for the client to see what I saw in the vf. Since he's been producing for 25 years he would have noticed it.

I was doing your garden variety office b-roll after shooting the CEO on green screen, the 300 performed great (although I need to buy a wide angle lens or adapter) and then they took me into their state-of- the-art factory and wanted me to film their high tech robots of which they are extremely proud. Being a Chicago shooter doing industrials is part of my DNA and I took one look at these robots jerkily moving at high speed with their many vertical components and I felt a sickening lump in my throat.

The first thing I did, using some lame excuse, was to disconnect the monitor so my client and his clients couldn't see what I knew was coming. I was shooting the requested 1080/30P, with and without a 60 degree shutter, and no matter what angle I took, or focal length, the vertical edges of the robots skewed badly. And even when I minimized it's noticeability (by having the components come at the lens rather than transverse the frame) another factor bit me in the butt: the robot's manufacturer's logos, being big text, made the skew even more noticeable.

So...my lesson in this, (and I add this thread because I know this forum has many DPs deciding on their next camera) is that I now have to buy a used HVX200 or HPX170 and keep that on the cart for when these types of shot requests come up. If you presently own one of those models KEEP IT, after you buy a 300. Figure this to be a hidden cost for owning the 300...But in my diversified market, in the industrial Midwest, I need to shoot a lot of fast moving machinery and I can't think of any other solution than to have a CCD unit with me.

P.S. I don't mean to trash talk it, in many ways I love my 300 (is it wrong for a man to love his cameras?), just thought you should be aware to not sell your CCD unit.
 
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Yep, there are some things that a CMOS camera just can't handle well, and that would be one. Since you knew it was coming, you at least knew to try certain things to avoid it. In the future I'd seriously recommend dropping to 720/60 for those shots, and dropping frames/uprezzing in post to deliver 1080/30 for them. The skew is soooo much lower in 720/60. Even 720/30 would have shown a lot less than 1080/30.

Or, yeah, pull out the ol' CCD cam and get those shots with no worries whatsoever, plus whenever possible it's always good practice to have a backup body with you anyway, in case whatever happens to the A-cam...
 
The exact reason I would keep my 170 if I were buying the 300 right now. It is not the right tool for every situation.

Dan
 
Hi Barry,

But, how do I shoot in 720/60 if they specifically request 1080/30? Would that not mess up the editor in terms of their timeline sequence settings? Can I have different rates on the same card? If so, I could switch and make a note to the editor perhaps. That way I can minimize skew and not make the editor upset, correct?
 
You can definitely have different rates on the same card. You can have *anything* on that card, you could put AVC-Intra and DV and a microsoft word document, it doesn't matter.

Now, if they're doing the editing, then yeah, you might have to stick to exactly what they asked for. I didn't know if they wanted a 1080/30p master (in which case, if you're doing the editing, you might be able to squeeze in some 720/60 and convert it to 1080/30 for the final render.)
 
So if you're saying I can mix rates then what I will do from now on is querry the client ahead of time if I may be running into certain types of (skewy) scenarios, without alarming them. If I think I may be in skewy situation, until I buy a 200 or 170 (it's always good to have a backup anyway), I will ask to speak tech to their editor, and I'll ask if I can throw in some 720/60. They usually will dictate what the day's specs are, I can't change without asking.

When HD first came about I was told not to mix rates or I'd mess up their post, I guess that has progressed and we don't have to worry about that anymore. Thanks for your advice Barry.
 
I DP'd a project that year that had 720 24pN, AVC INTRA 100 720 24pN, AVC INTRA 100 108024p, some AVCHD 1080 60i and some Beta SP. All in the same timeline. With some tweaking, it worked out fine. You can see the separate textures of the footage but it is all nothing that an average viewer would even notice.

With, what 18 ATSC standards for HD and all of the SD remnants, PAL, etc. it seems like doing mix and matches is becoming quite common. But yes, as an editor, I would be frustrated if someone handed me material that was mixed format without warning me ahead of time. It is all about time management. It can suck up a huge amount of time getting all of these formats to work within a project smoothly, lots of transcoding and changing specs.

Dan
 
nedcam said:
They usually will dictate what the day's specs are, I can't change without asking.
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No, you definitely can't change without asking! By all means, consult with the client about the acceptability of offering different formats for different shots. You can explain it even easier by saying that the camera has the ability to offer slow-mo, which might mean using a different format -- "would you be okay if I mixed in some shots that were from different formats when appropriate?"

When HD first came about I was told not to mix rates or I'd mess up their post, I guess that has progressed and we don't have to worry about that anymore. Thanks for your advice Barry.
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Definitely ask! If you don't know for a fact what editor they're using, and you don't know for a fact that their editor is happy with multiple frame sizes/frame rates, then you might indeed leave them in a bad position. But if they say it's okay, then I think you'd allow yourself some more flexibility and the capability to give them an even better final product.
 
I've kept my trusty 202... although you can really tell the difference between the 2 camera's in the timeline... the 300 has a crisper image...

and you can't shoot Intra on the 200's so the footage will tend to be mixed anyhow.. unless you decided to shoot the 300 in DVCpro...

Cheers
 
You can mix frame rates and progressive/interlaced scan types in Avid Version 4 - but this is a very RECENT development. I cant comment from experience on FCP (despite writing this post on one!) but I would be VERY wary and do full research. It could be a can of worms - especially if you get artifacts on output through a £1k output box.

As clients cant really tell the difference between 720 and 1080 I tend to shoot 720 which gives me the over-cranking option and more media time on a card. Lead!

D
 
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