MY DVX100A Feature is on NetFlix

Yikes!
CineCell has pulled no punches. I withhold all comments about a filmmakers work until I've seen the product, and even then I tend to withhold if I thought it sucked. Most distributors do this as well. Instead of, "This is pure garbage!" you will get, "I'm sorry, this is not for us but good luck somewhere else." If someone here at DVXUser makes a film and it's available, I rent it. Or even buy it in some cases. I have done so even before I became an actual member. I try to encourage, not condemn. That's just me.

However, I think it's also good that someone like CineCell roams these dark halls because the distributors who take the "We'll have to pass on this film at this time" approach are really doing no favors to the filmmaker. The filmmaker hears this and thinks that their film must be pretty good, the distributor just happens to have a full slate or something.

No. Most films shot on DV are terrible. Let's face facts. A lot of films shot on any other format are terrible as well. Daniel Rubino's point about money not being an issue and doesn't make your film good is valid, but only to a certain point. If someone has no money for their film, they may still make something decent, even good, but great? Almost never. And even if it is great, that means very little to a distributor. The first question any distributor asks is, "Who is in it?" They have to market it and name talent attached is the easiest way. The small distributors know that they won't get to see a film that has stars (unless the film is so bad, no large distributor will touch it) so they specialize for certain markets. Black/Latino/Urban for instance has a built in audience and so does slasher/horror. If you make a film in these genres you will have an easier time getting it distributed, but it's not guaranteed, and you won't make any money on it. Trust me.

If you want to make a living as a filmmaker, the first thing you have to do is develope the skills to do this. Some of the filmmakers here and abroad buy a camcorder and think they can make films for a living. If you stop and think about how many people there are out there, right now, who are thinking the same thing right now it well certainly give you pause. My partners and I submitted a filmmaker's movie to a mid-level film festival because we thought it was pretty good and had a chance of getting some recognition. We received word soon after that they could not accept the film at that time because they had already made there selections from the more than 3,000 films submitted that year. 3,000! That is the kind of competition we are all up against. How many of those films will get distribution? 5%? Not even that much I'll bet.

You need money. If your script is good, money will make it better. But chances are, your script is not good. If you have ever been through a professional script development, believe me, it's not pretty. Everyone likes their own material, but all too often, your film is doomed from the start because your script is weak. We get scripts sent to us all the time from filmmakers who want us to help them find financing. You would NOT BELIEVE the CRAP that I have read. I have read many a post on this and other forums where the filmmaker will say something like, "I'm not the best writer," or "The script is okay, but not great." Holy Type-O Batman! Stop right there for God's sake. How is your film going to be good if your script is just, "okay?" If you can't write. Find someone who can. Develop the story with them if you want, but creating a solid story is very difficult. Very.

I hate writing these long posts. I think that most people just skim right over them, so I'll end it here. I guess my final thought is if you want to be a filmmaker, then do it right. This is a professional industry after all. Write or get ahold of a killer script. Killer! And raise money. It doesn't have to be alot these days, but you have to have some. Get name talent attached. How? Send them your script. If they like it, that's a great place to start the negotiations. If they sign on, you can take their letter of intent and try to raise money off of that. How long does this take? I've seen it take from one year to seven years. Sometimes in never happens. While you are waiting, shoot as much as possible, work as a grip on a larger production to see how things work, and edit. Editing is a great way to learn how to make a movie.

That's enough for now.

John

I've said this before, but owning a camera does not make you a filmmaker. Owning a car does not mean you can race in the Indy 500. The camera is a very small fraction of what it takes to make a good film.
 
CineCell --

Black Urban and Latino interest markets are rising very fast in the DTV market (with companies like Maverick Ent in FL leading the way in that field IMHO). Although I'm sure there are a lot of 'shark' distribution companies out there, everyone plays along because it's their first foot on the ladder, which leads onto their next hopefully bigger and better project. It's all part of the process of getting credit with both distribution companies, production companies and financiers. It's called a proven track record.

Changing the subject, has anyone worked with Nu Image or Millennium Films?

EJ
 
John Wesley Norton --

Great post John. Especially about getting things in order for a successful production: The Great Script. And not simply the 'Okay Script'.

EJ
 
I don't think anyone who sells a project to a distributor like York has any delusions of granduer. I certainly don't. I see Rise of the Undead as a learning exprience. An elementary work. It was my post grad exprience. A releatively inexpensive, learing curve. I learned more about filmmaking, from conception to distribution, working on that show, than I did in all my years of school and production work in the industry. Technically and creatively.

Plus, I have a internationally released feature that has made money. I may not have seen any of it. But, it has helped in starting new projects. And I take every thing I learn from one project to the next.

I also have first hand exprience with peer and professional reviews and critics. The movie's been trashed, and rightfully so. And I've got some decent, dare I say earned feedback. There were elements of the movie that did work.

Now it's easier for me to find more money to develop better scripts, use more exprienced actors, use higher grade effects. But when I made Rise, I used what I had. And I learned a load. I don't regret it one bit.
 
CineCell said:
Wow, those films look horrible. No wonder you guys can't find distribution. Black films have a certain audience I guess... maybe I can't identify with them... or something. Try harder next and try shooting film with real actors. That will get you serious looks from real dist. companies.

The truth hurts... but it's still the truth.


Yeah CineCell, I was just wondering what you have done that allows for you to be so critical. You mention how my friend and the other filmmakers in this thread should shoot on film. Why are you on a DV website? Most people can't afford film, unless you are born with a silver spoon in your mouth, which you sound like. My friends and I are not trust fund babies, but at least we are trying. If you were Spielberg, Scorsese, or Coppola you probably wouldn't be on this site running your mouth.

The truth hurts....but it's still the truth.
 
jhorton2003 said:
I don't think anyone who sells a project to a distributor like York has any delusions of granduer. I certainly don't. I see Rise of the Undead as a learning exprience. An elementary work. It was my post grad exprience. A releatively inexpensive, learing curve. I learned more about filmmaking, from conception to distribution, working on that show, than I did in all my years of school and production work in the industry. Technically and creatively.

Plus, I have a internationally released feature that has made money. I may not have seen any of it. But, it has helped in starting new projects. And I take every thing I learn from one project to the next.

Now it's easier for me to find more money to develop better scripts, use more exprienced actors, use higher grade effects. But when I made Rise, I used what I had. And I learned a load. I don't regret it one bit.
Well put. :thumbsup:
 
Hey John,

I'm kind of glad that CineCell inspired you to write that post. I read your whole post and I got a lot out of it. Maybe you can post tips like that on your website. It would be a lot of help. Hell, you could write a whole section on how to get your film distributed the Do's and Don'ts of the film industry.

You're right about having money. Although, there have been a few underdogs chugging up Blockbuster Alley, like the Little engine that could.

Kevin Smith
Robert Rodriquez (El Mariachi like $7,000)
Steven Soderbergh
David Lynch
Spike Lee

We all have to believe in our product at some time. Although, I don't understand what kind of person would send a script out and start it with, "I'm not a good writer." What a way to sell yourself.

Yeah, 3,000 is a lot. The problem is so many people see television or they sit in a theatre and then they're like I'm going to do that. They then set forward making crap movies without any indication that they might have talent for it. It then becomes a festival of the "gag" films. I've been to a lot of film festivals like that. Although, I'm with you we have to support each others films. It's us against the no-talents. It a killer battle because a lot of no-talents have money which gets them the actors. Gag! Anyway, I maintain that the magic happens on the page first. If you have a bad script you can't fix it with pretty effects and a big budget.

What would be your advice for getting familiar actors and raising money for production. Maybe you can start a thread on here outlining some top ten tips.

Thanks,
Dan
 
jhorton2003 said:
I see Rise of the Undead as a learning exprience. An elementary work.

No need to apologize or self-depricate at least you're doing it. Any advice on getting these big name Actors? I know if you have a good script you can get a SAG actor for free if you're a student. How do you lure the Big Names?
 
What I'm finding is it all about money and availability. If you can pay the actor's asking price and it fits into their availability most will jump. Actors, even big name ones, are insecure and want to work. You never know when your next offer will be your last.

A friend of mine was prepping a horrow flick back in New Orleans. They had funding in place and their producer just starting calliing agents and getting quotes. If not for the hurricane they'd be in the can with name actors.

You need names to raise money. Money to attach names.

This is what my producer says. Create a workable budget. Something that makes sense for your genre and experience level. Figure out who you can afford at your budget. CHeck the availabiltiy based on when want to shoot. Tell the investors once funding is place your going after blah and blah, or blah and blah are interested, available and have worked for @#$! in the past. Have one or two alternate choices.

You might be surprised at what some "name actors" will actually work for and in if you catch them at the right time.

Oh yeah, a great script helps too.
 
Yes, there have been many shoestring budget movies that have been discovered and launched successful filmmaking careers. You always hear about the same examples, many of which are included in Dan's short list above. But when you stop and think about the number of big hits that come out of the festivals every year, you realize the number is very small. Yes there was El Mariachi, Blair Witch, Open Water, Nepoleon Dynamite, and on and on. These filmmakers got dream deals, but they also had something else, good movies. Yeah, we can argue about what's good and what's not, but the fact is, the distributor saw something that they thought a mass audience would be interested in and made the deal. Statisticly, the odds of anyone who turns a first (or even a second) film into a career of making films is heart-stoppingly small. Even getting the great deal does not mean you are set for a great life in filmmaking. The guys who made Blair Witch got completely ground up in the studio machine and have not been able to get another project off the ground. You remember how long ago Blair Witch came out, don't you?

jhorton2003 made a great point about not regretting the experience, and that is true. Even if you make a film and in goes nowhere, you still have the experience of makeing that film. You have the satisfaction of creating something, let's call it art. Film is art. Film is art and craft and talent and sweat and tears and emotion and one of the coolest things we can do to express the human experience. I love working on movies. But you can't love the art side without getting to know the business side. If you are not interested in learning the business side then art is all you will ever have and you'll be making your art on weekends after a long week of working a job you probably hate. Then, eventualy, you will give it up.

Most of us do. Statisticly, nearly all of us do. Yes, it's true...the truth hurts, but it's still the truth.

Don't become a statistic. Learn the industry. Do it right. And for God's sake, make good films. Most filmmakers who are successful didn't start out by making Phantom Zombie's from Babe Land. Realize that you don't make films for yourself, you make them for an audience. Telling a story to a crowd is much more thrilling than telling it to yourself. You just have to decide how big a crowd you want to tell. Me? I want a full house.

John
 
John Wesley Norton said:
Sorry for the ramble.

John

not at all. great post! seems like a common thing many of us have either dealt with before or will face soon enough. great thoughts and advice :thumbup:
 
I think part of what cinecell was trying to point out, in a rather blunt way, is a theory I always apply to my own work. If I wouldn't pay to watch it, I call it bullpoo poo, I call it a failure and I bury it under a rug.

Needless to say, I don't have a whole lot of examples of my work that I'm willing to show people.

The opposite side of this coin is, you gotta eat. Which means you have to actually turn in your work to your employer/investors. :)

It's all a learning process, but we have to be careful to never make excuses for our work. Example: "For [insert excuse] I think I did really well." If nobody is willing to buy it... doesn't that imply something about the judged value of the product? If you create great work, you will have no problem finding customers, one of those horrifying little details of the film business. Our failures are our own faults, we are presented with more than enough opprotunities to get our work out..


p.s. "Can you do any better?" Is by and far one of the lamest excuses I hear. The proper answer to that question is... WHO CARES? I can't change my oil, but I know a crappy car when I see it.
 
Glen,
I stayed up late last night and watched Rap Quest. My wife surprised me by coming down and laying on the couch to watch it with me. I must say I was very nervous with her in the room because I had no idea what to expect. There have been many nights when I rented or screened a low budget independent only to hear several times during the viewing, "Who makes this crap!?" or "Why did you rent this crap!?" or my favorite, "This is just crap!"

Well you'll be happy to hear that it didn't happen in this case. She just fell asleep (ha ha). Don't let that bother you. Like I said, it was pretty late. Glen, I think you have a lot of potential. I didn't bother taking notes and of course there are always things that could be improved, but I saw a lot of passion and hard work in your film. I'm not saying it knocked me out, but it was better than most of the DV features I've seen. There were some issues technicaly, but nothing that you couldn't fix by working with a professional camera person next time. A good camera man can take you to a whole new level.

I realize that I am not your target audience, being white and extreamly indifferent to Rap, but I did get a lot of the humor and laughed quite a bit. The one thing that I would caution you against is that often when people write dialogue they use slang and catch phrases that are 'of the moment,' which does not play so well five years down the line. Stick more closely to the King's English and you'll future proof your work. Rap Quest wasn't too bad in this respect, but just keep it in mind.

A lot of filmmakers who frequent this site think that buying the camera is half the work. You obviously know better. I'm expecting good things from you in the future.
John

ps. Tell your cast for me that they did a great job. Head and shoulders above a lot of low budget actors.
 
Great thread! Some really good points brought up as well.

I have to run, but I have dealt with all of those companies from York to Nu Image. Some of the best points brought up here are that now that the technical availability is more readily available for "filmmakers" we are getting a market flooded with a lot more bad films. Not that people's intentions aren't good, it's just a difficult art form that even the "pros" screw up on.

Distribution is even harder now with "names" in your film. And having a great script will still be a hard sell to get a name if you don't have money or a background to proove you can do it. This is a tough, tough business and you have to realize going in that you are doing it because you have no other choice. You are a filmmaker and bad or good you have to make movies. Just make sure you have the finances to fall back on if you don't make a dime from it.

I've been lucky with it but have worked in the business for 20 years (starting at 16 as a camera assistant) so know A LOT of professionals. I have been able to produce, direct, write and act in a group of productions that have all sold and made me at least a little money. And there are times where I have name actors in the films and still struggle with the sales.

So just go out and do what you love but keep your day job!
 
SquidLips knows what he's talking about.

It's not just actors that have to have something to fall back on. It's all of us. No position on a film crew is lacking candidates. If you want to grip, get in line. If you want to direct, get in a longer line. Of course if you buy a camera and make a movie yourself, then do it. What's that? You want to get it distributed? Get in the longest line of all. That's right, all the way to the back. Hey! No cutting!

Making a film is never a complete waste of time. Even if you don't like what you end up with in the end and you never see a red cent for your effort. You have done something that reletively few have done.

John
 
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