Movie sound on a budget for a Doc.

[jamesmallonuk]

I am making a documentary with a DSLR. I want however to have as much as possible movie quality sound. I know much is related to technique but still need to know what kind of mics I can get on a budget that can make a documentary shine. I guess I am thinking a Field recorder, lav mic, and a killer mic that can pick up foley/voices etc that have film level quality.

I was wondering about other mic options as well that can be left and pic up very intricate sounds, from sighs to someone scratching their head that comes out in a typical movie. My vision for a doc is not like Mike Moore more a naturalism feel which looks as movie like as possible.

When I say budget I mean maybe a 1000 dollars for each, is this even possible or will i need to pay more for movie quality sound?

 

[naavt]

I...still need to know what kind of mics I can get on a budget that can make a documentary shine. I guess I am thinking a Field recorder, lav mic, and a killer mic that can pick up foley/voices etc that have film level quality.

You are more likely to have your Doc shine (on sound) with a guy that knows what is doing with the equipment on hands than only on killer mics.

That being said, many people have found the zoom H4 a good recorder. I have one and do not stand by it on quality alone, but I have to recognize that field recorders don't come better than this for this kind of money.

If your DSLR has MIC input you probably will be better served with a Juicedlink or a good mixer. I've bought my Sound Devices from a fellow DVXUSER member for about half the price new, so you can do the same. Just scout for one.

Last. MICs. I've never tried Oktava mics but many seem to swear by them. For what I've read it seems a hard to beat contender on the low budget price tag but remember that cheap prices are paid high normally. I've started to buy cheap stuff (like the zoom H4), and learned later that it would be much better to have spent the cash that I've spent later on my HD-P2 right away.

You decide.

 

[Alex H.]

I am making a documentary with a DSLR. I want however to have as much as possible movie quality sound.

I was wondering about other mic options as well that can be left and pic up very intricate sounds, from sighs to someone scratching their head that comes out in a typical movie.

Those little sounds in motion pictures are not picked up by mics or mic technique. They are added in post. Your job in the field is to capture dialog as clean and clear as possible. And if it's picked up by the mic on location, it is not Foley.

Letting go of the assumption that everything you hear in movies comes from production sound, you're looking at a very basic field audio kit:

- Shotgun mic and pole/shock mount/windscreen kit
- a couple of wireless mic systems (be sure to upgrade the lavs)
- a field mixer
- a field recorder
- good headphones
- a bag to carry the gear
- and all the cables you need to interconnect.

A person who knows how the heck to use this stuff is also a huge plus. Hire a sound person if at all possible.

Then you'll need to budget for a professional to handle your audio post, at which point FX and Foley may be added if you really need them.

 

[Noiz2]

Before we go too far you should probably explain what "you" mean by "movie sound". There are plenty of "movies" with horrible sound, and doc.s especially often have very poor sound. They are all however movies so they all have "movie sound". If your talking about a polished "Hollywood movie sound" then the first thing you need is crew that knows how to get what you want and then a post team to match. Equipment isn't going to do it unless it's in the right hands.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

Technic wise I don't really need any advice. I need as someone said to capture voices as a small budget movie collects them or as much as possible in a less planned setting like a doc. I was looking at a field recorder and possibly a wired (as wireless is not nessecary) But I want a mic that picks up sounds in the field as well. I know a lot of sound is added later in movies but someone has to record it as well and much is recorded on loaction. So what is a budget options for a movie mic and field recorder. Any ideas.

 

[timbook2]

take the zoom or edirol as recorder and get extra mics for clip on and a good shotgun mic. its going to sound better than the onboard stuff. but the best idea is to get an extra sound person who knows what he/she is doing!!!

 

[Steve House]

Technic wise I don't really need any advice. I need as someone said to capture voices as a small budget movie collects them or as much as possible in a less planned setting like a doc. I was looking at a field recorder and possibly a wired (as wireless is not nessecary) But I want a mic that picks up sounds in the field as well. I know a lot of sound is added later in movies but someone has to record it as well and much is recorded on loaction. So what is a budget options for a movie mic and field recorder. Any ideas.

There's no such thing as "a movie mic." There are a wide variety of high quality mics available, each with their own characteristics, with different types of mics being the optimal ones to use for different situations and locations. If you were shooting dialog between two cowpokes riding side-by-side down the dusty trail in an open field you'd do one thing. If you were shooting tightly framed romantic dialog on a bearskin rug in front of the fireplace you probably would use something totally different. A talking heads interview in a business office, yet again something else. If you were recording the wind howling through the tress to lay in under a storm scene, still something else again. You have to pin it down more than you're doing.

Likewise, "field recorders" run the gamut from Zooms costing few hundred bucks up to 8-channel Cantars pushing the 20 kilobuck barrier. For some shoots the Zoom might be good enough. For others, anything less than a Cantar, Deva, or Nagra just won't do at all.

 

[Rippie]

Technic wise I don't really need any advice.

I know this was only a side comment but reading that sentence made me want to comment.

No offense meant but with that mentality you're setting yourself up for failure.
You obviously need the help which isnt a bad thing. Be open to it and pick and choose what you decide is best for you.
I've been doing this quite awhile and I still learn new things every day.
New tricks, techniques..etc.

The day you stop learning is the day you stop trying to be the absolute best
at anything.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

I know this was only a side comment but reading that sentence made me want to comment.

No offense meant but with that mentality you're setting yourself up for failure.
You obviously need the help which isnt a bad thing. Be open to it and pick and choose what you decide is best for you.
I've been doing this quite awhile and I still learn new things every day.
New tricks, techniques..etc.

The day you stop learning is the day you stop trying to be the absolute best
at anything.

I didnt mean it to suggest I was God of audio knowledge what I want to know is what kind of mics are used as acceptable dialogue for movies. Sorry but no movie was ever shot with a rode videomic however good your technic is. I need to know a budget mic for audio mainly dialogue aquisition and also field mic. For dialogue the best technic for me is probably going to be a wired mic (one man shooter) I think off a field recoder but if a Zoom isn't going to sound great then I may want to spend more. I want to know if there is a mic that can pick up sound from a situation including dialogue but want the budget one that could be used for a semi-professional movie. Maybe its too expensive and I need to think again, but that is my question and until anyone attempts to help me answer that specific question I won't be any the wiser.

 

[Alex H.]

I didnt mean it to suggest I was God of audio knowledge what I want to know is what kind of mics are used as acceptable dialogue for movies. Sorry but no movie was ever shot with a rode videomic however good your technic is. I need to know a budget mic for audio mainly dialogue aquisition and also field mic. For dialogue the best technic for me is probably going to be a wired mic (one man shooter) I think off a field recoder but if a Zoom isn't going to sound great then I may want to spend more. I want to know if there is a mic that can pick up sound from a situation including dialogue but want the budget one that could be used for a semi-professional movie. Maybe its too expensive and I need to think again, but that is my question and until anyone attempts to help me answer that specific question I won't be any the wiser.

Please understand... the confusion comes from this:

I was wondering about other mic options as well that can be left and pic up very intricate sounds, from sighs to someone scratching their head that comes out in a typical movie.

Those intricate sounds are not typically recorded in the field. Those are the things that are added in post, since trying to record them with dialog will cause major problems for the dialog.

If you are looking for a basic dialog mic that has good performance at a budget-minded price, the Rode NTG-2 (to which I linked in my earlier post) is a popular favorite. There's a wealth of information on audio for TV/film in this forum. Read through the stickies. You might also look at the DVD "Sound for Film and Television" that's available through the DVXUser forums. Part of understanding which mic you need comes from understanding the intended use and the potential situations. The DVD will walk you through a lot of useful tips... and can even help you improve your technique.

If you plan to record the audio separately from the video (double-system), the Zoom H4n with a shotgun will work for you. The Fostex FR2-LE will be a little bit better.

As a one-man shooter, you will be hard-pressed to place the mic in an appropriate position to record dialog. It doesn't matter if you have a Rode VideoMic or a Schoeps... if it's on the camera, it's in the wrong place. This is why the suggestion has been made to have some one else on hand who knows how to handle the audio gear, so that some one can swing the boom and keep it in the right position.

 

[Noiz2]

I want to clear up what sounds like a misconception. "Big" films don't, intentionally, record anything but dialog during production "on set". Not because it's the big boy way to do it but because doing otherwise makes editing hell. It would be easier for them to "fix it in post" than it is for you, they have the people and facilities. You want to mimic their work flow for the same reason they do it. It will make your film better and your life easier. Personally I will always advocate for recording new sounds for post if possible rather than using commercial libraries. BUT if that is done during production it is not done on set, or at least not when the crew and actors are there. And has been pointed out it's way too noisy to get those "intimate" sounds in the "real world", you need to do them in a studio, or VERY quiet and dead space. And when I say quiet I don't mean "ya my house is quiet", I mean what a professional would call quiet. You might get away with a quiet house and just do a ton of takes and hope that one came out clean from birds, neighbors, cars. planes. trains, subway, dogs, refrigerators, etc, etc. But 1/2 hour in a vocal booth will probably be a lot more productive.

With that understanding. On a budget I would get the h4n and Rode shotgun - if your out doors and The Oktava hyper or similar if your indoors. For ambiance recordings use the built in stereo mics on the Zoom and for the small FX and those "intimate sounds" use the shotgun or Hyper.

And as others have said "On camera = bad sound". Not 100% true but close enough.

And while I do doubt than any films with decent budgets have been shot with the video mic. All of those films were shot with a sound mixer AND a boom op. THere are plenty of micro budget films that would have sounded better if they had used the video mic rather than the POS they did use and fudged into the camcorder. By the very nature of your question you are much closer to that camp than the features with a budget camp. I would say that IF you are planning on sticking the mic on the camera the video mic is the best choice. It was designed for that use and will probably sound better on the camera then the others. If your booming then it's not even on the table since it is made to attatch to the hot shoe not a boom pole.

 

[dre83]

There's no such thing as "a movie mic." There are a wide variety of high quality mics available, each with their own characteristics, with different types of mics being the optimal ones to use for different situations and locations. If you were shooting dialog between two cowpokes riding side-by-side down the dusty trail in an open field you'd do one thing. If you were shooting tightly framed romantic dialog on a bearskin rug in front of the fireplace you probably would use something totally different. A talking heads interview in a business office, yet again something else. If you were recording the wind howling through the tress to lay in under a storm scene, still something else again. You have to pin it down more than you're doing.

Likewise, "field recorders" run the gamut from Zooms costing few hundred bucks up to 8-channel Cantars pushing the 20 kilobuck barrier. For some shoots the Zoom might be good enough. For others, anything less than a Cantar, Deva, or Nagra just won't do at all.

Sounddevices is not bad... the 744 or 788

 

[jamesmallonuk]

Please understand... the confusion comes from this:


Those intricate sounds are not typically recorded in the field. Those are the things that are added in post, since trying to record them with dialog will cause major problems for the dialog.

If you are looking for a basic dialog mic that has good performance at a budget-minded price, the Rode NTG-2 (to which I linked in my earlier post) is a popular favorite. There's a wealth of information on audio for TV/film in this forum. Read through the stickies. You might also look at the DVD "Sound for Film and Television" that's available through the DVXUser forums. Part of understanding which mic you need comes from understanding the intended use and the potential situations. The DVD will walk you through a lot of useful tips... and can even help you improve your technique.

If you plan to record the audio separately from the video (double-system), the Zoom H4n with a shotgun will work for you. The Fostex FR2-LE will be a little bit better.

As a one-man shooter, you will be hard-pressed to place the mic in an appropriate position to record dialog. It doesn't matter if you have a Rode VideoMic or a Schoeps... if it's on the camera, it's in the wrong place. This is why the suggestion has been made to have some one else on hand who knows how to handle the audio gear, so that some one can swing the boom and keep it in the right position.

I understand how saying intricate noises might not be clear but actually you hit the nail on what one of my main questions. I once met a guy who recorded the sound for a big IMAX production and he said something about a diapram mic when he was recording the sound of a flock of about 10,000 seagulls. Ok so I'm not talking that level but i wanted to know how i can record intricate sounds on a higher level than I expect a zoom h4n couldnt, yes seperate to dialogue.I never heard or rarely in a documentary all sounds properly of birds or cars etc going by that you can hear in a movie in a very detailed way. Don't movie makers use a particular brand of mic/shotgun mic? Would the pro's always use 10,000 dollar mics or are there budget options, when I say budget i don't mean a video mic? a real pro movie quality mic around the 1000-2000 dollar range?

 

[edinc90]

I once met a guy who recorded the sound for a big IMAX production and he said something about a diapram mic when he was recording the sound of a flock of about 10,000 seagulls.

Well, all microphones have diaphragms, that's how they work. Perhaps you mean a large-diaphragm mic?

Ok so I'm not talking that level but i wanted to know how i can record intricate sounds on a higher level than I expect a zoom h4n couldnt

It's not the recorder that will allow you to record more "intricate" sounds, it's the mic and the mic placement. And if the gain is up enough to capture the sound of a person scratching their head, then the dialogue will be far too loud.

I never heard or rarely in a documentary all sounds properly of birds or cars etc going by that you can hear in a movie in a very detailed way. Don't movie makers use a particular brand of mic/shotgun mic?

You hear all those sounds because the sound designer and sound mixer went in and added them. They weren't recorded on set. In fact, you want to record the cleanest dialogue you can on set, then add the ambience later.

Would the pro's always use 10,000 dollar mics or are there budget options, when I say budget i don't mean a video mic? a real pro movie quality mic around the 1000-2000 dollar range?

Schoeps is the standard hypercardioid mic for Hollywood, but it's not exclusive. I've heard a lot about the Sanken CS-3e as well in the shotgun realm, but again it's not exclusive. Pro audio guys will use whatever mic they find works for a particular situation, and they all have their own favorites. I have personally not used any mics costing more than $1,000, and even I have my preferences in that price range. Experience is the key here. I would suggest getting a Rode NTG-1 or NTG-2, a boom pole, and an audio recorder. Then hire someone with boom op experience to boom for your shoot.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

Why do audio questions bring up the urge for people on forums to give a master class on mic use. I know there's a lot to know about mic use but honestly the amount of times people in these forums say things like you need to put the mics close to the subject is ridiculous and insulting for even the hobbist videographer. Just like your visuals audio can be just as creative you can record all kinds of sounds as you shot and you can add all kinds of sounds in post theres no rules as long as the end result is what your going for. Audio seems to have a pixel counting following which is fine but then those people often don't know the creative effects on the listener for different kinds of sound and when sound creates a visual language and story. Or at least this side of things is sorely lacking in this section of the forum. Sure you need to know some technical stuff but you don't need a physics Phd either, you just need to know what mic is good for different circumstances, whats its range/pattern of pick up etc.

Anyway, Schoeps...Many thanks thats all I needed to know. I'll look into it.

 

[ggrantly]

Schoeps...Thanks thats all I needed to know.

Man, that is so not all you need to know.

Grant

 

[jamesmallonuk]

Man, that is so not all you need to know.

Grant

You've illustrated my above point nicely thankyou.

 

[Noiz2]

Well lets see... Because you have no idea what your talking about.
How about "what camera will give me a profesional film?" Or "what lights will make my film professional?". "what paint brush will make me paint like Picaso?".
They are STUPID questions. People are being nice and trying to stere you in the right direction. If you don't want to hear it then go buy a Schoeps, they are a good company and will happily take you money. But it does NOT get you what you asked for. It's like the old lawyer "trick" question "when was the last time you beat your wife?". There is no answer to what mic will give me professional sound because it's a BS question. By asking it you scream out loud that you have no clue as to how the sound track of a film is made.
If you want to just trow money at it randomly I have some sounds you might want to by and a bridge that would make an excellent set (it's in Brooklyn).

Cheers
SK

Why do audio questions bring up the urge for people on forums to give a master class on mic use. I know there's a lot to know about mic use but honestly the amount of times people in these forums say things like you need to put the mics close to the subject is ridiculous and insulting for even the hobbist videographer. Just like your visuals audio can be just as creative you can record all kinds of sounds as you shot and you can add all kinds of sounds in post theres no rules as long as the end result is what your going for. Audio seems to have a pixel counting following which is fine but then those people often don't know the creative effects on the listener for different kinds of sound and when sound creates a visual language and story. Or at least this side of things is sorely lacking in this section of the forum. Sure you need to know some technical stuff but you don't need a physics Phd either, you just need to know what mic is good for different circumstances, whats its range/pattern of pick up etc.

Anyway, Schoeps...Many thanks thats all I needed to know. I'll look into it.

 

[Noiz2]

Just like your visuals audio can be just as creative you can record all kinds of sounds as you shot and you can add all kinds of sounds in post theres no rules as long as the end result is what your going for.

This is sort of true but not in the way you mean. Your point is you should be able to do anything and we should bow to your creativity. It's a mechanical art and there are rules. You can play with the edges and such, you can be creative all you want BUT you need to be in certain bounds or it just sounds bad. People have been working at this for almost a hundred years and ignoring the knowledge is the same as designing a new car by trying to invent the wheel.

Audio seems to have a pixel counting following which is fine but then those people often don't know the creative effects on the listener for different kinds of sound and when sound creates a visual language and story.

Now this is true, there is a lot of that. But strangely this forum is one of the lesser culprits of this. Go to a hardcore audio site and you will be swamped by meaningless tech porn.

Or at least this side of things is sorely lacking in this section of the forum.

This is also partly true. But mostly because few people ask creative questions. It's much more about "I did this stupid thing, How do I fix it?" Or "I want to buy an X". But don't think for a second that just because people are not asked creative questions that they don't have opinions or make creative choices every day. Your question for instance did not ask anything creative, just a misguided "technical" question. It seems that "creativity" is the pat response when one asks a stupid question and gets an answer they didn't want to hear. "I want to use post-it notes for film, you naysayers just don't have creativity!!!".

Sure you need to know some technical stuff but you don't need a physics Phd either, you just need to know what mic is good for different circumstances, whats its range/pattern of pick up etc.

Actually you need to know a LOT of technical "stuff". You don't need a degree in anything though. Most top film sound professionals do NOT have a background in sound. But they do pay a lot of attention to that "technical stuff".
And no, sorry, knowing about mics is just a tiny part of the story. And BTW not very "creative", though it can be.

 

[JordanBlock]

The basics of technique are constantly repeated around here because many people come to the audio board, ask "what do I buy to make it sound like Hollywood?", and go on their merry way. If you don't answers, don't ask questions, and don't jump on people for trying to help you out.

By all means, get creative. Instead of putting the mic near what you're trying to record like we poor misguided souls suggest, stick it in the trunk of your car while you're rolling, or just twirl the boom around like a baton. Then all you have to do is wait for the awards to come for your innovative sound technique.