mounting jib to van

F

firehawk

Veteran
I want to attach a jib to my full size Ford Transit cargo van to shoot moving shots of vehicles, bicyclists, runners etc.
At first I was going to just attach a mount coming up from the hitch to attach the jib.
Then I thought of having an L shape mount come up from the hitch and then back into the van to place the jib pivot center just inside the rear of the van.
Lastly I decided that using a large platform at the rear might be better for several reasons. So I found a pic showing someone that had done something simiar.
This poses several obvious challenges.

When I bought the van I specifically got the full size factory hitch reveiver for the future hope of mounting a camera and also for this jib idea.
My thoughts are to modify a heavy duty hitch mounted car carrier with additional bracing and some type of high hat coming up to attach the jib to.
The tail end of the jib would swing back into the open van where the operator would be. The doors will have to be braced open (another challenge). The rear of the van should create a wind tunnel block to help with some of the wind that comes with speed.
My thoughts are to mount a remote control gimbal (Ronin MX?) to the jib instead of a remote pan tilt head.
Measures for securing the operator inside would have to be taken also.
I have been kicking around several thoughts but wanted to ask on here since you guys are smart and creative.
ronin-dutchmen-sm-2.jpg
 
I'm wondering how solid it will be in a hitch. It seems like it would have a wobble. But you mentioned bracing.

What does the wide platform do for you besides add weight?

If you are adding a high-hat, then I'd take a look at mounting the jib directly to the van floor. It might be a lot simpler. Maybe you don't want to poke holes in the floor or you won't give enough movement. If you want the pivot point outside the van, I'd look at mounting a board to the floor that extends outside the van. A C-channel platform bolted to the floor will be solid and can extend out the back.

You should run a test to see what kind of wind vortex you have with the doors open. It may be that you have some bad vortex that will jostle the camera all over.
 
Looking at just the safety side, have you thought of a way to limit the arm movement in-case the driver would need to make any type of emergency maneuver? Something with that type of leverage, momentum and weight could, at the very least, badly hurt someone. Even doing a hard mount on a vehicle with a Steadicam, they will sometimes put a safety strap on the arm to limit it's movement if it were to get away from the operator. Securing the operator isn't that tough, the equipment will be the tricky part.
 
Great comments. Thank you both.
I like the idea of using a floor and mounting the jib to that instead of the cargo rack. Embarrassed I didn't think of that! That would be more simple I think due to the fact that the hitch mount racks have a little give / wiggle that would have to be addressed.

Bracing the doors so they can't fly shut or open yet still leaving enough clearance for jib travel is another challenge.
And of course safety constraint measures for the jib in case of a hard turn or stop...

Thank you guys. So great to get help
 
If there's a roof/luggage rack(which there probably is, but can't tell from the pic), you could attach a ratchet strap(or two) to that to secure the rear hatch open.
 
The van in the pic is much different from mine. My transit has double swing out rear doors which have a lock open mechanism but I wouldn't trust it while driving
 
I like the board platform idea. I can fashion one that can be inserted onto my van floor. And have it stick a little out the rear of the van. Can you guys give me any suggestions on hardware to attach to the board that I can mount a jib onto? I'm concerned about regular high hats being strong enough. Seems I need some type of pedestal sticking up which at the top the jib can mount to. Ideas?
 
A cast high-hat should be rock solid. The riser might not be so solid depending how tall it is. If a riser doesn't work for you, then you can make a solid box out of wood and screw that to the board. Then bolt the high-hat to the box. It won't budge. It might be a bit bulky though.
 
My advice is to start without a jib and learn some of the issues at play.

For example the Rinin doesn’t work round corners

You will need to learn lots of stuff about vibration control and mounting.
 
The first thing that comes to mind with mounting a jib arm out the back of a van is liability issues.
We worked with a professionally built jib vehicle on a shoot, and the requirement was a closed area with no outside traffic, vehicle or pedestrian.

How I do these shots on the cheap.... van mounted gimbal with the appropriate focal length lens. My Sprinter also has a side door, for side by side shots.
Drone, either flying or handheld.

Having tried just a jib mounted in my Sprinter van, I can tell you that you will be doing a ton of post stabilization work if some form of gimbal is not used.
 
Thank you all very much. Much appreciated.
Yeah I've looked at the motocrane and black arm.
I realize a jib without gimbal will be rough so I plan on using a gimbal (Ronin MX?).
When you say it doesn't work around corners, what do you mean exactly?
My thinking is one guy control just the jib. A 2nd guy control the gimbal via remote. This is similar to how we shoot with our Inspire copter (one guy fly, other guy shoot). Another person drive the van and another ride along to assist. Everyone is on headset, including someone in the car being shot. This allows for fast communication.

I have shot handheld quite a bit out my van side door with and without gimbal with good results and also out the back of a Chevy Tahoe even up to 70mph with good results (there is a calm wind block region directly behind it.) I certainly have no intentions of going nearly that fast with a jib, though.

I am also in the process of getting ready to build out my van interior so I am wanting to integrate my plans at once so as not to build something and then later realize I should have done it differently. So my thinking now is a board "floor" that can be put onto the van floor and secured. When I build out the van I will allow for floor space and a way to secure it.
The platform will have a wood box attached to the floor with some type of high hat attached for the jib to go on. I was wondering if I could use some type of hard rubber between the box and board to dampen jars and vibrations a bit?
Also on the board I was thinking of attaching some type of simple additional seat with safety belt and attachment points for whatever other harness is used.
I will be adding side walls/shelves in the van too so I can incorporate mounting points on those for safety as well.
And on the rear of the board that sticks out the rear of the van have a lip sticking up a bit for additional safety so the floor doesn't just allow something to just roll off and out of the van.
Also at the rear of the board figure out some way to brace the van doors open so they cannot break lose and swing.
Certainly needs more thought and will need to be tested in stages before a jib is ever attached.

The idea is the jib board platform can be loaded entirely into the van and the van shut to drive to location. Once at location the rear can doors are opened and the board is secured into position with the rear sticking out the back of the van. The jib is mounted, the doors are secured and so forth.....action.
 
firehawk said:
Thank you all very much. Much appreciated.
Yeah I've looked at the motocrane and black arm.
I realize a jib without gimbal will be rough so I plan on using a gimbal (Ronin MX?).
When you say it doesn't work around corners, what do you mean exactly?
My thinking is one guy control just the jib. A 2nd guy control the gimbal via remote. This is similar to how we shoot with our Inspire copter (one guy fly, other guy shoot). Another person drive the van and another ride along to assist. Everyone is on headset, including someone in the car being shot. This allows for fast communication.

I have shot handheld quite a bit out my van side door with and without gimbal with good results and also out the back of a Chevy Tahoe even up to 70mph with good results (there is a calm wind block region directly behind it.) I certainly have no intentions of going nearly that fast with a jib, though.

I am also in the process of getting ready to build out my van interior so I am wanting to integrate my plans at once so as not to build something and then later realize I should have done it differently. So my thinking now is a board "floor" that can be put onto the van floor and secured. When I build out the van I will allow for floor space and a way to secure it.
The platform will have a wood box attached to the floor with some type of high hat attached for the jib to go on. I was wondering if I could use some type of hard rubber between the box and board to dampen jars and vibrations a bit?
Also on the board I was thinking of attaching some type of simple additional seat with safety belt and attachment points for whatever other harness is used.
I will be adding side walls/shelves in the van too so I can incorporate mounting points on those for safety as well.
And on the rear of the board that sticks out the rear of the van have a lip sticking up a bit for additional safety so the floor doesn't just allow something to just roll off and out of the van.
Also at the rear of the board figure out some way to brace the van doors open so they cannot break lose and swing.
Certainly needs more thought and will need to be tested in stages before a jib is ever attached.

The idea is the jib board platform can be loaded entirely into the van and the van shut to drive to location. Once at location the rear can doors are opened and the board is secured into position with the rear sticking out the back of the van. The jib is mounted, the doors are secured and so forth.....action.
Click to expand...

Ronins tip round corners as Gforce ruins thier horizon. Not a problem in a straight line.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?362311-State-of-Gimbals-late-2018-(Gforces)

Remember gimbals work on PTR (pan tilt roll) but not XYZ (fore, up down left right)

You need a gimbal and an XYZ stystem.
THe human arm are a very good XYZ system for what its worth - the game changes when you take it out of the system

XYZ can be done with a spring damper (as above) or other systems. or BOTH to remove different frequencies on vibe.

Remember vans are not fast - I would build a system that works with both your van and also the usual bmwM5 or whatever thel local hooligans have in your area

Vans are not nice to have a bicycle or motorbike near as your dirver cannot see through/round the van well

There are so many issues..

Yes - load your van with mountpoints, build a system, but realise it is a long long road to get right and I repeat my advice.. start with somthing smaller than a jib and build up to that.

(FYI here is my current effort.. https://vimeo.com/219200296)
 
Very cool. That looks like a lot of research went into that setup. I see you are using struts to dampen the Z axis like Motocrane does. How many attempts did it take to find the right strut? What are the 4 vertical square tubes doing?
 
Big thanks again everyone.

Yes I plan on getting a wire spring dampener like Rig Wheels and ProAm as well as others make for XYZ forces.

I realize a van has limitations. I specifically got the 310hp Twin turbo version so it would have the guts needed to keep up. However the other limitations of being a big box on wheels certainly exist :)

I have several different projects in mind:
1. A magnetic mount camera system (isolator/gimbal) that can be mounted on the van or a car.
2. A receiver hitch mounted camera (isolator/gimbal) for the rear of the van
3. A jib mounted in the van.
If I can accomplish all three of those I will be able to do a lot regarding vehicle shots.

Back to the jib in the van... If I install an additional rubber mat under the board floor that the jib is mounted to would that help any? It already has the factory vinyl floor mat.

As far as gimbals, the Ronin MX is said to have superior motors for use on vehicles. But I have read several people going back to the regular M instead, which is also much less expensive. I see you have the M and I would prefer to save the $.
Is the MX worth the extra cost?

Morgan_moore, your setup looks fantastic!
 
firehawk said:
... If I install an additional rubber mat under the board floor that the jib is mounted to would that help any? It already has the factory vinyl floor mat.
Click to expand...

I'd say it's not worth it. Pitch, yaw, and roll are mostly taken care of by the gimbal. The cable damper helps with the z-axis. Take a look at what Morgan and Motocrane are doing with struts as z-axis stabilizers. I'd say copy what others have already figured out. The struts are probably the better way to go over the cable damper.
 
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Great advice Paul F. I'll look closer at their use of struts. No need to waste time trying to figure out something that someone else has already figured out.
 
In regard to Ronin M vs MX I realized I didn't mention the cameras I want to use:

mainly this small pov camera Panasonic AG UCK20. It can be fully controlled inside the vehicle and has 5 axis stabilization
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1333545-REG/panasonic_ag_uck20gj_compact_camera_head.html
I want to attach a Sony action cam FDR X3000 on top of the little Pansonic so I also get a really wide 4K shot

Maybe this one if I need 10 bit LOG
Panasonic DMC FZ2500
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1333545-REG/panasonic_ag_uck20gj_compact_camera_head.html

Maybe a Sony A series mirrorless

Since they are all small I am hoping maybe the lower cost Ronin M would be sufficient over the more costly MX
 
Paul F said:
Very cool. That looks like a lot of research went into that setup. I see you are using struts to dampen the Z axis like Motocrane does. How many attempts did it take to find the right strut? What are the 4 vertical square tubes doing?
Click to expand...

You may notice that there are a series of holes in the rig so the struts can be set at accute or less accute angles so it can be 'tuned' without using adjustable struts like you get on the black arm.

Also the rig adjusts for/aft giving it more/less leverage on the struts.. another means of tuning.

I started with some strutts from an scrap Merc A class boot. They were too hard and said 400n on them... I then bought some stutts that are 200n

I think those are the numbers.

Garage science.

--

The four verticals are a parallelogram (sprung) that allows the rig to move fore aft to account for movement in that axis - ie smoothing braking and acceleration movements.

Every axis the springs hit multiple holes so can be 'tuned'

S
 
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