Motivators: A list?

EJ Pennypacker said:
IMO it all boils down to whether you're crafting a character-driven piece, over something like a high-concept piece.

IMO, if you're creating something you want to sell to the studios, and you're interested in making a career in H-Wood, then the 'concept' has to be placed first (unless character is part of that concept) over the inital creation of a character.

In the end, whatever gets you writing your story in the first place - is the best thing. Whether character comes before premise, it could be one of the same/ or is the same.

It's nearly impossibly to debate 'what comes first' (character vs premise) as not all writers think alike, and there's no possible way in earth to measure this with statistics (how can you record thoughts of the writers?).

But I'm my opinion, it's better to create a solid, marketable and interesting premise, *then* create the characters to populate that universe of your story. Not the other way around.

EJ
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My response is that the nebulous and mysterious nature of the creative process doesn't give one the luxury of deciding a character versus concept/story starting point. It's in fact entirely possible that it might be a "Setting" that gets the ball rolling. I think it comes down to something a writer finds inspiring. It could be a character, a story idea, a setting, or an obscure scene--such as the train/airplane scene in North by Northwest. It could be a piece of music. A line, Who knows. It's that spark that ignites a story. They;re all valid and all been used in one form or another.
You know what's worked for you in the past. But what works for you may not work for me--so there's no reason to discourage other approaches to developing a story.
 
EJ Pennypacker said:
brian,

I don't understand your comment here. Are you saying I can't give my opinion on what I think works for myself? And in my opinion, what might help others?

Kholi,

If you'd like a device to 'flesh' out characters more, you can find a check-list here: http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3292

EJ
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Thanks for that! I just cut and pasted that into a Word file and will keep that forever. Just added it to my writing tools list. EDIT: And at a secong glance of this Template, this might be the perfect thing to get me going on the right track. If I feel like I HAVE to answer all of these questions, then I'll get to know this entity in my brain more-so than I usually do. And, it'll force me to be more creative with the types of characters possible, instead of reusing lines. It'll also show me that some characters that I've created have similarities.

Thanks for this, EJ. Seriously.

On the idea of what gets the ball rolling: I've never been able to start a story around a character. It's always a scene, setting, or concept for me. Which might be my issue with character "depth". =\
 
I don't think EJ was trying to discourage anyone, but the truth of the matter is this,
a writer creates a STORY not a character. The PLOT usually comes first. Not
saying that it's not possible to have a character first and build around that, it's
just really not a good idea because you can LIMIT your story to that character.

Where as if you start with the PLOT first, the premise, then the possibility is
endless. I'm going to agree with EJ as a writer on this, I would personally
concentrate on the story first and then go from there.

I am not trying to discourage anyone, however, I am trying to steer a more sure
method of coming up with a broader sense of storytelling.
 
Charli said:
I don't think EJ was trying to discourage anyone, but the truth of the matter is this,
a writer creates a STORY not a character. The PLOT usually comes first. Not
saying that it's not possible to have a character first and build around that, it's
just really not a good idea because you can LIMIT your story to that character.
.
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Charli, you are simply wrong. This may be how YOU do it, but others don't do it that way. It doesn't "Limit" anything. I don't know why you keep asserting your personal preferences as unfettered truth. It's a disservice to this group to make blanket statements like "writers create story not character."

However I'm with EJ that a high concept idea is the best way to sell a script. In fact if you've got a really good idea, you don't even need a script. Studios and producers will pay for a good idea. The catch is that a great idea is the hardest part of the process and most writers can't come up with one.
 
Charli, you are simply wrong. This may be how YOU do it, but others don't do it that way.
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brian,

Your posts are coming across very, very odd. I don't know why you would make such grand statements as 'others don't do it that way'. Who are others? Who are these people? Am I an 'other'? Is Charlie? Are these pro screenwriters we are talking about here. And if so, how many. And what constitutes 'others' in the numeric sense. 5. 10? 100?

By your own standards, nobody should tell anyone what they should do, in fear that it may to a 'disservice to the group'. So by using your own theory, you shouldn't tell anyone that they are wrong, for surely that is 'wrong'?

So we're left with a board where nobody is allowed any discussion, based on the theory that 'everybody could be wrong' - and we are all left with nothing.

A blank webspace where nobody can voice their opinions?

EJ
 
EJ Pennypacker said:
brian,

Your posts are coming across very, very odd. I don't know why you would make such grand statements as 'others don't do it that way'. Who are others? Who are these people? Am I an 'other'? Is Charlie? Are these pro screenwriters we are talking about here. And if so, how many. And what constitutes 'others' in the numeric sense. 5. 10? 100?

By your own standards, nobody should tell anyone what they should do, in fear that it may to a 'disservice to the group'. So by using your own theory, you shouldn't tell anyone that they are wrong, for surely that is 'wrong'?

So we're left with a board where nobody is allowed any discussion, based on the theory that 'everybody could be wrong' - and we are all left with nothing.

A blank webspace where nobody can voice their opinions?

EJ
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You're misrepresenting my posts and it's not I making "grand" statements. There's nothing wrong with saying "I prefer to start with plot first." But it IS wrong to discourage (as you did) people from taking a different approach or for Charli to state "Here's the real truth!" (That's what I call a grand statement!) Unless "Charli" is a pseudonym (sP?) for William Goldman, maybe she oughta show some humility.

My position all along is there are no grand truths except for one: That there are no grand truths. There might be truths for Charli, but I assure you, they're far from "grand". This sentiment is echoed by William Goldman himself with his famous line "No one knows anything". And every interview and article I've read by an A list writer from Anastasio to Zalian consistently resists the urge to bottle the creative process--and things like "The truth is a writer creates a story NOT a character" is not just wrong but feels like, and smells like a Syd Field inspired, reductionist attempt to package the writing process into neat little connect the dots workbook. No thank you.

And I'm certainly for open discussion. But I see a lot of novice questions here by novice writers. These writers could be the Paul Haggis's of tomorrow so I object to baseless advice steering a talented person in the wrong direction.

Again, what works for you, may not work for others. So to assert your personal preference as an option is fine, but to assert them as ground rules for the craft is wrong.

The best advice in the thread is from Callaghan.
 
EJ Pennypacker said:
While often characters help shape a story, I always (if it's a big budget affair) start with a very solid/interesting/commerical/high concept idea, then move onto other elements to developing the idea.

I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story.

Story/premise always comes first IMO.

EJ
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That is my original statement, that I guess brian has taken offense to.

And I guess that seperation of those words:

I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story.

Story/premise always comes first IMO.
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Should be read all as one sentence, despite it being seperated. Those two sentences, were, my opinions.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I prefer to start with plot first." But it IS wrong to discourage (as you did) people from taking a different approach...
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brian,

I think you need to re-read my post(s) in this thread(s), as you're not misrepresenting my posts, you're misunderstanding them.

I was giving 'my opinion', not discouraging people, or telling them if they do something else, then they are idiots.

I'll quite happily edit my posts and remove 'in my opinion' and add 'I prefer to' if that'll make things good with you. But I see them meaning the same thing.

EJ
 
EJ,

As I understood you post, you were discouraging people from starting with character and instead focusing on story first. You said:

"I wouldn't recommend starting with a character, then try and fit them into a story."

If that is not what you meant, then I apologize for misrepresenting your advice.

My opinion is that starting with character first is a perfectly valid way to develop a screenplay.
 
brianluce said:
These writers could be the Paul Haggis's of tomorrow
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Dear God, I hope not. The one we've got writes enough crappy movies as it is.

As far as this debate goes...it's kind of stupid. There's obviously no one way to write. I started one script with a couple amusing lines of dialogue, and it turned into one of my favorite scripts. That said, I find it impossible to start with one or the other. Plot/character: aren't they the same thing? Ideally the plot happens because of the characters.

Don't get me wrong, I've started with concepts too. But those scripts never go anywhere, because I don't have any characters. Just a page full of pitches.
 
Call - is it that writers right or writers rewrite?

brian - I don't think I was showing pride nor arrogance, and it appears you are the only one who took offense. There are people who write and then there are true writers, I don't think you'll disagree there, for there are people who filmmake, and then there are those who are true filmmakers.

All I know is that I know nothing - give me a bloody break.
 
HappyGobo said:
Dear God, I hope not. The one we've got writes enough crappy movies as it is.

As far as this debate goes...it's kind of stupid. There's obviously no one way to write. I started one script with a couple amusing lines of dialogue, and it turned into one of my favorite scripts. That said, I find it impossible to start with one or the other. Plot/character: aren't they the same thing? Ideally the plot happens because of the characters.

Don't get me wrong, I've started with concepts too. But those scripts never go anywhere, because I don't have any characters. Just a page full of pitches.
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I start with concepts to, and have to build characters afterward. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, though. It's just learning HOW to build characters, but after you've got about three successful characters in your story, then I'd guess you'd kind of get how it works. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

I am using EJ's character sheet right now, and it's pretty fun to get into. Made me realize I had a few things off with my lead and now I'm fixing that.
 
Call - I LOVE that motto, cool!

Blaine - omg, you added a superhero reference, I think I love you! Really, one day, I want to create my own superhero. I did a comic book spec a long time ago, but I want to do a superhero short! woo hoo, what powers to have, what powers...
 
I'm not sure what people are arguing about.

A plot driven film starts with a concept and a story first and fills it with characters to make the action happen

A character driven film starts with a character and a problem and fills it with action to make the story happen

Both are just fine and have many different qualified films under their belts.

The feature I'm writing now is a concept action story populated with characters designed to push the story forward. The feature I wrote before was about a bunch of characters and their motivations and what happens when they cross.
 
Charli said:
Call - is it that writers right or writers rewrite?

brian - I don't think I was showing pride nor arrogance, and it appears you are the only one who took offense. There are people who write and then there are true writers, I don't think you'll disagree there, for there are people who filmmake, and then there are those who are true filmmakers.

All I know is that I know nothing - give me a bloody break.
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For the most part, I have no idea what you're talking about.

And it's fine if you want to disagree with William Goldman's take on the subject--however a lot people think he's credible. I do at least.
 
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