More frame rates confirmed

Oh now thats very cool!!! Hmm frame rates a-plenty!!!

SPZ said:
If 26 is possible, why not 25 for Pal conversion ????? Don't tell me its too hard!!!
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Agree completely - I'm wondering if Panasonic will do the Z1U / and XL H1 deal (well after factory change at Canon) and offer just ONE camera all over the world with all the settings to allow switch between NTSC and PAL. From a manufacturing/production standpoint - this would be the smart thing to do - only one camera to make - and only one manual to write.

When you have 24P and 26P - bleh 25P for PAL is really a no brainer.... If they don't do this - then they are really hoping to cash in on the PAL market (always more exxy than the NTSC brethren) and that would sure be a shame.... and just greedy -

Ho hum...

Cheers, Nathan
 
Hey everybody, I just posted this question to Tosh. It's quite a risky one, so let's see if he "approves" and answers it :-) Here it is:

Hi Tosh,

while I really like most of what I'm seeing from the hvx so far, there are 2 omissions that I really regret: the lack of 24p and 60p frame rates when storing on P2 in the PAL versions. Could you explain in detail why this is so? It seems to me that this is only a software problem, as the tape drive would not be involved, and the CCD, DSP and P2 drives are the same on both PAL and NTSC versions. So, why can't you copy over some code from the NTSC version so that the PAL version also gets those two very much sought after frame rates?

As you know, film has 24fps even in Europe. Currently, we european guys would have to invest in the double amount of money (get both a PAL and and NTSC camera) to enjoy true, hi-quality 24p and the magic of "2.5x-slomo" instead of only "2x-slomo" to get that same versatility that you deliver into US markets (film and videos use). That's roughly $18000, $8000 of which, it seems, could be solved with simple software.
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Cheers!
 
As you know, film has 24fps even in Europe. Currently, we european guys would have to invest in the double amount of money (get both a PAL and and NTSC camera) to enjoy true, hi-quality 24p (...) it seems, could be solved with simple software.
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OK Edelweiss! I just bought both HVX 24p/60i and 25p/50i.

And I'll make a decision about what camcorder I must choose for my project - big screen & DVD* release equal = my business plan is unquestionable: fifty fifty 50% for big screen 50% for DVD release; and TV* broadcasting later but 'cause that is an arthouse production, this medium is forgotten in the business plan :).
I only can shoot once and it's not possible shoot with both cams since we are indies. Last but not least, there isn't slow motion (well then, not all the movies have slow motion...).

What will it be better option?

* mostly PAL but also NTSC
 
Barry_Green said:
Well, cici, allow me to make your day -- you want slower frame rates? You'll get 'em.
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Thanks Barry for the slow framerates - I'll have to learn that procedures but I think I got the idea and can do it.

Call me a glutton but as the HVX will have some possibilities for single frame-settings (including interval), I'm more concerned about the lacking 60p for my PAL-camera. You won't believe, but if it had 80p, I even would use it, because there can't be enough full-frames for the super-slow-mo's that I want to realize. Today I use 50i and Liquid Edition and the result is a very good slo-mo at 1/5 of the original speed. Nobody complains about the result, but for me, it's far not enough. I'm filming mostly nature and action documentary, so a high-speed camera would often be the better choice.... But my budget won't allow a high-speed camera, so I'd be happy to get this great camera (the HVX) with as many fps as possibe and I'll be envious about a 60p NTSC-version :embarasse . After all I'm sure, the HVX will deliver me pictures that will be a much better base for super-slo-mo than the 50i SD PAL that I have now...
 
what about the european version?

Barry_Green said:
On Panasonic's defperception.com blog, they've announced even more frame rates for the HVX. We listed 8 frame rates in the HVX Update article; to that list Panasonic has added rates of 20, 26, and 36 frames per second.

The list now stands at:
60, 48, 36, 32, 30, 26, 24, 22, 20, 18, 12
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So far I haven't seen any really confirmed list of framerates for PAL-version except of course the 25 and 50. I have sent a post now in the Panasonic Broadcast Europe Forum ... let's see what happens.

And some little good news about the bundle myth:
The letter//statement that we were analyzing in this forum from Michael Erkelenz seems to be copied by other Panasonic staff from the same forum, so it goes on gaining trust:

This was a stereotype answer that I found one day after the letter of M. Erkelenz in the forum:

Dear Madam/Sir,

thank you for your interest in the AG-HVX200.

As you already know the camcorder will be available in the 1st quarter of next year.
At this time we will release the price for the camcorder as well as for bundles.

Thank you for your patience.

Best regards
Larissa Sybon
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"Tosh" responds:

Hi Pete,

It is more than just software. It is about synchronizing the signal, working with AC current and other technical requirements for a video signal and it just isn't that easy. The folks in the US wanted 25P so that they could offer rentals to PAL crews and the US camera will not have this either. The way the engineers explained it to me was that the audio is the problem, and keeping it locked up and importable into a system that supports NTSC and in your case PAL. 60 frames is not supported in PAL products, 24 frames isn't either. So in the case of NTSC , the audio would come in at 24.976, nothing works that way and in your case the audio would come in at 23.976 and nothing there works that way. It would be analogous to inventing a product that wasn't supported by anything. It is more than just software, it is bigger than that and maybe a few years out from now, that can be overcome, but not today.

Thanks for stopping by,

Tosh

This seems pretty fishy - everyone else can figure out how to do it and Panasonic does it themselves on the Varicam.
 
Very fishy town - very fishy... In fact a lot of that explanation is bollocks.. Sony can do it on the Z1 - Canon will be doing it on the XL H1 - why not Panasonic? (I'm referring to NTSC/PAL functionality - not progressive frames) Working with AC current?? Umm what are the batteries and AC->DC universal adapter for? The camera runs on DC not AC.... Same voltage - same ampage.

With standalone SD cams I can see the technical reason for having two versions: a PAL and an NTSC - they have different resolution AND frame rate (colour system to a certain extent - not so much of an issue anymore). So there are a number of changes in each that needed to be different. However with an HD camera that has the same resolution independent of regional video systems, yet only different frame rate - umm - why do we still need two different model designations? Especially when the camera is capable of such a variety of frame rates. The omission of 25P and 50P is clearly intentional - though for the life of me I can see no technical reason why. 16:9 HD can be down sampled to SD to either PAL or NTSC resolution without much hassle if its at the correct frame rate so...?

There is no technically sound reason why a camera that can produce 24P w/audio and 26P (I assume with audio) would not be able to produce 25P with audio?!? Yes we still want 24P at HD for film work - even though we have 25P. Greedy? Maybe - but 24P allows a true time scaled film print without the 4% time variation on vision and audio hassles for film printing. A moot point possibly - as 4% isn't huge - (a 90 minute feature shot and edited on 25P - then scaled for 24P film print only gets pushed out to 93.6 minutes) - but if it a project you are printing to film - then one less post-production cost and delay is VERY important. There is also the fact that I want to be able to use one camera for both NTSC and PAL projects.... Hmmmmm

Anyway I digress - 60, 48, 36, 32, 30, 26, 24, 22, 20, 18, 12 is AWESOME - but I'd really like to see what the "PAL" versions list is... Harping on about it a bit I know - but adding two extra frame rates and having "One Camera to rule them all" (sad I know) is obviously not a massive amount of extra effort for Panasonic.... and would vastly open up the creative options, and potential market you can produce for - without buying "one of each"...

Cheers, Nathan.
 
town said:
"Tosh" responds:

Hi Pete,

It is more than just software. It is about synchronizing the signal, working with AC current and other technical requirements for a video signal and it just isn't that easy. The folks in the US wanted 25P so that they could offer rentals to PAL crews and the US camera will not have this either. The way the engineers explained it to me was that the audio is the problem, and keeping it locked up and importable into a system that supports NTSC and in your case PAL. 60 frames is not supported in PAL products, 24 frames isn't either. So in the case of NTSC , the audio would come in at 24.976, nothing works that way and in your case the audio would come in at 23.976 and nothing there works that way. It would be analogous to inventing a product that wasn't supported by anything. It is more than just software, it is bigger than that and maybe a few years out from now, that can be overcome, but not today.

Thanks for stopping by,

Tosh

This seems pretty fishy - everyone else can figure out how to do it and Panasonic does it themselves on the Varicam.
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Your pulling our leg, are you? Because if you're not, then I totally agree that Tosh's explanation is a total load of BS ! :thumbdown I find it hard to believe that Tosh/Panasonic can give us such non-sense. Panasonic was honest... up to now. I am really disappointed. I'd rather hear the truth that it's a marketing decision and not an engineering one; pure and simple. I really hate to be insulted this way. :angry:
 
Barry_Green said:
Not after Juan gets through with it. That's what Shaw was talking about. Juan's mod gives direct access to the uncompressed output of the DSP.
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Now, is it true that the HVX200 doesn't produce true HD but rather HDV? I looked that the new B&H catalog and they have HDV beside it. It's been my understandings from the very begining of all this that part of what separeted the HVX200 from the others is that it shoots true HD using p2 verse the others who shoot only HDV.
:shocked:
 
No, definatley NOT HDV - there are a number of threads floating on this and other forums - I think its "B&H Mess Up" here.

In short B&H stuffed up... The HVX200 is most definitely NOT HDV... There are threads in this forum that cover that topic....

Cheers, Nathan.
 
Flintstone said:
I am really disappointed. I'd rather hear the truth that it's a marketing decision and not an engineering one; pure and simple. I really hate to be insulted this way. :angry:
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:thumbup:
 
There's a post asking for confirmation of Panasonic Broadcast Europe's Forum about the frame rates. I posted my reasoning. I suggest EVERY european user to post there in order to make 24P in Pal possible- Heck, I even said I would pay the $500 dolars upgrade Canon is asking if this is done on the HVX!
 
Whilst not a "Eurpoean" user - PAL user from the land down-under.... Posted and gave my reasoning and justification...

Cheers, Nathan.
 
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