Moderation????

BrianMurphy said:
Well I came back to catch up on the thread. It seems Paul has said his piece. A couple others had their moment including me.Yet one person continues the journey to enlighten the rest of us on how the group is missing the boat and a new system with a new mod (wink wink...say no more say no more) with new ideas is just what is needed to get what seems to work fairly well considering Barry's informed comments and David's patience.
I say close the thread.
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haha Brian, its true I know how to beat a dead horse real well but aside from being ITIL v3 Foundations certified - a discipline and practice in both establishing and delivering "good service" to the masses, I also created and run one of the largest National websites in Canada for a specific niche market and it is very successful! My ideas are not rocket science by no means. Someone just needs to "do it" and we will all benefit.


Dave © said:
Not trying to be difficult...I genuinely want to know. Does it matter? What's the problem that needs to be solved?

I think the focus of this conversation should be placed primarliy on the consumer (potential buyer) of information here rather than on the producer (would-be seller). If the consumer can find items for sale more easily, both buyer and seller win (theoretically, more items will sell). So...

* Is it to the advantage or disadvantage to the consumer if more items are posted for sale? Advantage overall, I would think, but I can also see some disadvantages.
* Is it to the advantage or disadvantage to the consumer to have a few categories for browsing? Advantage, I would think.
* Is it advantageous to the consumer to see post titles with prefixes? Not so sure.
* Is it better for consumers to have "heavy-handed" moderation on sellers (e.g. limited bumps, limited # of posts per seller)? I don't know, probably because I don't see the problem with how it works today.
* Is it better for consumers to have minimum-days-on-site thresholds for sellers (e.g. 30 days before one can post an item in the marketplace)? Again, I don't know. I think the data would need to be examined or someone like David, who has more insights into seller behavior, would need to assess this. Are there disproportionately more illegitimate items for sale from new DVXers? If so, a limit probably makes sense.
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Dave hit the nail on the head - what problem are we trying to solve? Who is the end consumer? Is it the person who "needs" to sell, or is it those who want to "buy"? Is it both? What is needed in order to manage the changes in terms of additional resources? What time will be saved/gained? What extra time will be needed?

Define some of those "problems" and the direction and decisions will be clear. As I suggested already, do a little at a time, think with the end in mind, and remember without "trying" something new there is no progress or evolution.


David Saraceno said:
When we limit bumps to price changes, I tend to see more sales.
That's based on my experience over nearly two years.
When we ask people to post their latest price in their latest post, not just the original listing post, we tend to see more sales.
Just my impressions.
Same with limiting photos to five or less. Faster load times for a thread, less waiting to see the posts, and more sales.
We design the rules to maximize sales. It seems to be effective.
What I don't like are multiple items for sale in a single thread. Tends to be confusing, difficult to update, and many buyers simple don't know what is still for sale and at what price.
Sellers who this, do themselves a disservice.
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A good idea is to allow the original listing to change at any time the poster wants, but the bump STILL can not happen until after 7 days. So what ends up happening is people just wait until the 7th day to bump and change the price at the same time.

More organized sections (categories) will improve searches and load times for sure.

I agree to eliminate multiple items for sale in one post.

Like I said, start with small changes and be ready to adapt, there is no "one all end all" solutions and there will always be a balance between the choices made. Remember there will always be complainers about any system good or bad - so the main thing is to know why the changes were made in the beginning and what "value" they would bring.
 
"A good idea is to allow the original listing to change at any time the poster wants, but the bump STILL can not happen until after 7 days. So what ends up happening is people just wait until the 7th day to bump and change the price at the same time."

Yes, the practical effect of which is that everybody leap frogs to the front, in turn, and you are back where you started (briefly), accomplishing little or nothing . . . Except adding to the bump count & unnecessary reading for the members.
 
dregenthal said:
"A good idea is to allow the original listing to change at any time the poster wants, but the bump STILL can not happen until after 7 days. So what ends up happening is people just wait until the 7th day to bump and change the price at the same time."

Yes, the practical effect of which is that everybody leap frogs to the front, in turn, and you are back where you started (briefly), accomplishing little or nothing . . . Except adding to the bump count & unnecessary reading for the members.
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No so. With enough categories to dilute the listings per day per category, as well as the number of items that sell, and number of people who won't bump at all - there is no major "leap frog" effect.
 
People bump to get at the front of line.

It's not correlated to how small the pool is from looking at our Marketplace several times daily for 22 months.
 
Yes people bump to get to the front of the line because there are 20-30 post per day that are either A.) new posts or B.) bumped ones through a "price change". After 5 days that's 100-150 posts ahead of yours! That puts you, after only 5 days, on the 6th - 7th page. Damn right folks including myself want to bump it again. Why do you think some non-forum sites give the option of paying a couple bucks to keep your ad at the top? It's all about visibility. Divide those 100-150 posts by even just 5 NEW categories and suddendly people will be on the first 1-3 pages for at least a week.

So yes, a smaller "pool" by use of categories will help.. and ask yourself if the problem is really that people want to bump, or of the problem is that the current system/rules do not faciliate the need?

So what is the status of the possibility to make some decent changes to the marketplace? Is it under evaluation, consideration or we leaving things the way it is?
 
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Yep, if we allow bumps to get to the front of line, then that's what people will continually do.

And that's what we want to resist. It's unfair to everyone, but the person bumping. If you want visibility, then lower the price, improve the listing, or add items. But don't crowd to the front of line.

I regularly see posts each day where someone is resurrected a couple of days, week or months old sales thread that is selling something they are interested in buying.

Actually it happens quite often. People find items in the Marketplace using the search button. That's what I see.

As to changes in the Marketplace, we all listening to the suggestions.
 
As a side note to the marketplace debate, would it be helpful to the moderators for us to report non-compliant marketplace threads (such as no price listed) like we do for spam, point it out in the thread, or just leave it to you guys to inform the offender?

Speaking of spam, haven't seen any for weeks now - whatever changes have been made seems to have worked. Booyah!
 
Egg Born Son said:
As a side note to the marketplace debate, would it be helpful to the moderators for us to report non-compliant marketplace threads (such as no price listed) like we do for spam, point it out in the thread, or just leave it to you guys to inform the offender?

Speaking of spam, haven't seen any for weeks now - whatever changes have been made seems to have worked. Booyah!
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Just reminded a seller about no price.

The reminder occurred in the body of the thread, and in that manner, acts to (hopefully) inform others of that requirement.
 
What DVX needs is infraction system.

Its the only way people learn unfortunately, when there are no serious consequences to be had. Once certain members learn that rules are laxed they just abuse it. ie. multiple accounts and then post a question from another account to bump their own, even at risk of being scolded. That is not enough. Three infactions and your suspended or banned. That simple if you're "serious" about enforcing forum rules.
 
We have an infraction system. It has been in place for quite some time.

And make no mistake -- we are very serious about enforcing forum rules.
 
David Saraceno said:
Yep, if we allow bumps to get to the front of line, then that's what people will continually do.

And that's what we want to resist. It's unfair to everyone, but the person bumping. If you want visibility, then lower the price, improve the listing, or add items. But don't crowd to the front of line.

I regularly see posts each day where someone is resurrected a couple of days, week or months old sales thread that is selling something they are interested in buying.

Actually it happens quite often. People find items in the Marketplace using the search button. That's what I see.

As to changes in the Marketplace, we all listening to the suggestions.
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So David, do you believe it is the "bump" itself that increases the chance of sale (because that lands it on the top three pages), or do you believe the chance is increased just because the item was lowered or listing improved in some manner perhaps with added items, etc.. even if for example it might sit on the 10th or 20th pages?
 
starcentral said:
So David, do you believe it is the "bump" itself that increases the chance of sale (because that lands it on the top three pages), or do you believe the chance is increased just because the item was lowered or listing improved in some manner perhaps with added items, etc.. even if for example it might sit on the 10th or 20th pages?
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Past the first day, any combination of lowered price or added value demonstrably increases chance of sale.

I routinely get complaints from sellers who see sellers lowering pricing by insignificant amounts. $10 a day on $15,000.00 to $10,000.00 items.

But when pricing shows a downward trend, people begin to take interest. Rarely do sellers provide an opening price that is perceived as fair.

This is one of the reasons I ask people to place the amended price in the last post, not the original post.

Some people tend to delete the previous pricing post, and I feel that is counterproductive to selling.

Sellers who try to bump in violation of our guidelines hurt themselves in my view.

While eBay isn't a good example, one instructive point is the "watchers" in the selling panel. People initially search for an item, and then watch it as the auction progresses. I think that if someone is interested in an item, our search tool can find it, and sellers will watch the item until the item reaches a point where the price make sense.
 
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$10,000 - $15,000 items tend to move slower and sometimes its just a matter of timing for it to sell, more so than price. So why should those people with bigger ticket items be forced to constantly reduce the price and in the end "give it away" instead of holding out on a price and ensure a fair chance was given? Specialty items for example will take even longer to sell just because of the nature of the item. So a seller waits 2 weeks and ends up on the 14th to 16th page, he waits a month and ends up on the 30th page...

Of course sellers are only going to lower the price by $10 because the current system does not allow them to increase their visibility again any other way meanwhile they are competing for the same prime space people selling higher demand items like media cards, lenses in the $500 range.

I believe its the bump that gives the visiblity and hence lands the sale, not just the lowered price on its own, but in the current marketplace you have to do both together and that's what I'd like to see change.

The fact DVX has this much volume is a GOOD THING, but with this amount of it the system needs to be improved.
 
We're all friends here and can have a good discussion. We don't need to agree or disagree, but some good and valid points have been made and a few small issues pointed out that do exist - but it sounds like things will just stay the same and we will settle for status quo.
 
David Saraceno said:
Rarely do sellers provide an opening price that is perceived as fair.
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Psychologically, there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than simply setting "a fair price" at the outset. We, humans, like to get a good deal yet we are horrible at judging the absolute value of pretty much anything. So we see an opening price of pretty much anything and think, That's too much money. Only when we see the original price and the discounted price do we stop and think, Hmm, that looks like a good deal. I better jump on this before it's too late! Or when we see the price of the large item and think, Well, the medium is almost as big but less expensive so I'll get the medium one. Or...we see the medium one and the seller points out that "it's only 50 cents more than the small one," so we spend more money to buy the medium one even though we would have been perfectly happy with the small one.

It's called anchoring. It's a fascinating, odd human behavior that impacts us every single day!

And I've veered way off topic so I'm going to get back to the topic at hand.

I don't necessarily think the marketplace is horrible as it is today. Generally speaking, I think it works great. Sure, I search and scroll more than I'd like but I'm willing to exert the effort if I really want something. But that doesn't mean it can't be improved either. Among all the suggestions made, I only see two as being near sure-fire improvements:
* Limit new users from posting to minimize scams (assuming new users are more likely to post scam items)
* Introduce a few categories to aid browsing (but make sure the navigation supports the categories and doesn't require the user to click 4 times to get to the right category).

I don't actually have any problem with the current bump-method/rules.
 
Good thread. Even saw some minor conflicts (apparently) resolve.

There's heavy-handed, hands-on, and hands-off. I think David's hands-on, as he should be, and other Mods are balanced.

I like star's MP categories, and was going to make a suggestion something like dave's, perhaps even more condensed?

CAMERAS/CAMERA ACCESSORIES/LENSES

LIGHTING/GRIP/SUPPORT

 SOUND (mics, hardware, recorders)

POST-PRODUCTION (COMPUTERS, hardware and software)

ALL-OTHER (misc. filmmaking related items: books, DVD's)

Or CAMERAS alone.
And CAMERA ACC/LENSES combined separately.

30 day/25 post membership to post to MP? Email account that is at least that old, too.

5-7 days to bump in MP? Or a percentage drop in price to avoid the $1 drop on the $15000 camera.

I know what Paul's saying about users leaving, though I've never spoken to anyone about why. I just notice "Oh, so-and-so doesn't post any more.
I wonder why? Using other forums, too busy, life changes, or what?" Like say, Leo Tischeli- where did he go after the AF100 rollout? Back to work, I guess...

Barry_Green said:
The site is, after all, well over nine years old and halfway to its 10th birthday.
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"Nine years is halfway to 10???" I thought at first, then had another cup of coffee, and said "Ahh..." :grin:

Question is, who's throwing the 10th birthday party? Barry??? :happy: :beer:
 
I have sold items here for less than I initially listed and bought items here that were way reduced from their original posted price. I have also removed items from sale when I couldn't get a buyer at the price I wanted. That is just the way it works and I have been happy with it. I think David had done a good job with his "hands on" approach.
 
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starcentral said:
This seller listed and in some cases delete the same item four times, can you advise how the infraction system works exactly?

2013-01-04 02:28:02 GMT http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...32GB-Sxs-Card-PL-Mount-Sony-Prime-Lenses-More!
2013-01-08 21:50:02 GMT http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ra-w-3-Sony-PL-Primes-S-Log-Upgrade-Low-Hours
2013-01-09 19:40:01 GMT http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...PL-Prime-lens-set-S-Log-Upgrade-SxS-Low-Hours
2013-01-10 19:32:02 GMT http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ra-w-3-Sony-PL-Primes-S-Log-Upgrade-Low-Hours

Nothing against the guy, but like I said before with higher priced ticket items once they end up past the 5th page no one is looking there and a friendly "bump" is what some users of DVX feel is needed to get new viewings and exposure.
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And what makes you think he hasn't been infracted, warned, or dealt with in some way?

Those things do not appear in public view, and we do not discuss moderation actions in public.
 
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