Moderation????

[MPB]

Perhaps I touched a sensitive nerve here, if so I sincerely apologize. However, my observations have also taught me that sensitive nerves are something that should be addressed before they become a real problem.

usually that phrase, referring to sensitive nerves, accompanies a situation in which there is an angry reaction. whereas here, the fact that there was a response really just seems to indicate that someone was paying attention and willing to have a discussion with you.

 

[starcentral]

As far as the marketplace goes, I'm fine with it as it is. If someone isn't bumping with a new price why would someone be interested to buy it now if they weren't yesterday? Allowing a weekly bump would be okay but for those of us who use the 'New Posts' method of combing for threads, daily bumps would form a glut that impact on finding useful discussion threads. The FOR SALE in the title helps but when it's half of each page of search results...

My view is that the marketplace isn't the point of the site,

I think a good marketplace is as much an attraction as the forum itself. Why wouldn't a GREAT community deserve a GREAT marketplace? And one that is organized along with some simple rules will make it fair and offer equal exposure to members for their listings. DVX has a large volume of ads posted compared to other sites so DVX is the perfect candidate for this small "renovation".

Someone earlier said something about just using the search, but searches pose a heavy burden on a site with a lot of listings which is why searches are time limited and also character limited. The search engine behind the forums is not very good to begin with - for example it does not deal with hyphens well and know how to break apart search strings into multiple search strings to generate results. Try searching PMWF3 , PMW F3, PMW-F3 and guess what? Either no results found, or "too few words or too common" message appears - meanwhile I know at least 3 listed for sale including my own!

So do we really want a broken search and possibly miss out on ads, or does it make sense to have the ability to browse nicely organized categories? (Like 99% of the websites out there) I don't know about the rest of you but I quite enjoy a good cup of coffee in the morning and browsing through some of the listings of my favourite sites and then getting on with my day. I'm not going to sit there and type in words like a mad-man and try to "trick" the search engine to ensure I get a good list... sometimes I'm just feeling spontaneous and not even in the market for anything in particular but hey if something catches my eye :happy:

 

[starcentral]

My offer still stands to assist with the moderation of the marketplace if such changes are moved forward. There will be a lot of initial eduction for members and moving posts into the right category depending on what it is. In a month or two you can do a re-evaluation of the categories and they are easy to change around and move listings if needed.

On one forum (different niche market from DVX) I've seen them actually code the bumps to not be allowed after X amount of days so it alleviates the policing of premature bumps. The initial post of course can be edited or changed at anytime but you must wait the 7 days until bumping.

 

[Paul Hudson]

...and if it is not the moderation but the rules, perhaps we should consider easing the rules.

 

[starcentral]

Seriously Paul, what did I miss? What did you see?

As for easing the rules, what more do you want. Barry already pointed out the basics: no divisive fighting over politics, religion, no name calling,

Seriously, its fine to complain about things in effort to make them better - but kindly provide some specifics.

P.S. I must really have missed something good here! Woah!!!

Cheers,

 

[bosindy]

I think the moderators do a good job and there are too many trolls that get off on being controversial. I have always appreciated the moderators putting an end to it quickly and very few people, if any, don't come around because of the moderators. I know many people that used to spend a lot of time here and those people (and myself) come around less because they require less information and Facebook made social interaction with fellow filmmakers much easier. When I do need to learn about a new camera, piece of gear, software this is still one of the first places I come.

I do think there should be the ability to bump your post every 7 days in the marketplace so people know it is still current.

 

[David Jimerson]

My statement is pointed at no one in particular. It was a simple observation. I have never been moderated myself but that maybe because I believe in civil debate. Perhaps I am old school but I was taught to try and always be understanding of any dispute, if that be face to face, phone or now the internet.

Perhaps I touched a sensitive nerve here, if so I sincerely apologize. However, my observations have also taught me that sensitive nerves are something that should be addressed before they become a real problem.

I have no personal problem with any moderator. Never have and by all means I don't suggest anyone be fired.

If this thread results in the changes people have suggested to "The Marketplace", great, if not it means nothing to me personally. It is your forum. Do as you see fit. On DVX, as well as life, we can learn a lot by listening to others.

Paul, we're always open to suggestions from members, but unless you can tell us specifically what you see as the problem, there isn't a lot we can do to change anything for the better.

I mean, just saying "it's not as fun as it used to be" isn't really all that helpful, and most often, this feeling just comes from a change in membership, which is inevitable. My home town doesn't really feel like my home town anymore, and it's not because the rules are enforced differently, but because the people I don't know now outnumber the people I do know.

 

[maranfilms]

I've often said that this is the best moderated site I've been on. The mods are rarely intrusive in the main boards, the few times I've been moderated I've been given a reason by PM, a chance to make good and even if I haven't liked it, I agreed with the decisions

.

I have to agree with eggbornson on this, I admit, I can be outspoken, and sometimes rude. Not always realizing I come accross that way until I reread a post or read a response from another member calling me out on it, which is what they should do. Or a mod will pm, and say to tone it down a bit.
I think were pretty lucky to have this site as a resource. Who doesn't learn here? And as Barry stated, it is a different time. When the dvx100 hit the scene, it was new and amazing, no other video cam had 24p in that price range. People were excited, new tech, everyone was eager to learn this cam and share experiences, and work. Ten years later, people are no longer sharing the excitment they once had with this new tech, Everything is so competative now, and when people read something they don't agree with, they seem to lash out and argue their moot point. I can see where Paul misses the way things were, who doesn't? But I don't share the same opinion as him about the mods ruling with an iron fist either.

It's to bad Paul, you feel this way because your truely an asset to this site, I've read countless posts from you always interested in reading your take on a subject. I guess if your not happy here there's only one thing left to do, and thats move on. And thats cool, people need to respect your decision., and the way you feel. But it wouldn't a bad idea to take into consideration some of the above posts before you decide to write dvx user off. Best of luck either way

 

[Dave ©]

I've read through every post in this thread. I personally think the level of moderation is balanced. Mods do a great job, in my opinion. Thank you!

I pretty much agree with all of starcentral's suggestions about the marketplace.

I would not suggest any brand specific categories at this time as that would result in far too many levels in the hierarchy for a forum based marketplace. It needs to be limited to 6-10 categories at the most. So instead I would start as simple as the following:

CAMERAS & EQUIP (all video/photo cameras)
CAMERA ACCESSORIES (matte box, rails, LCD monitors, EVF)
LENSES (lenses, lens filters)
SUPPORT (dolly, cranes, jibs, tripods, heads)
GRIP (stands, sandbags, booms, clamps)
LIGHTING (lights, gels, frames, fabrics)
SOUND (mics, hardware, recorders)
POST-PRODUCTION (hardware and software)
ALL-OTHER (misc. filmmaking related items: books, DVD's)

I would suggest starting with 5-7 categories, using starcentral's descriptions-by-examples above:

* Cameras/Lenses/Accessories
* Support
* Lighting/Grip
* Sound
* Post-Production
* Other (and this could be the place you post large lots)

I also like the idea of a 30 day wait period before you can post. It reinforces the community aspect. However, like Gary, I think long and hard before considering a purchase from someone who I don't see around here regularly so I don't think the wait period is absolutely necessary. It could definitely help eliminate "riffraff" posts, though.

I also like the idea of eliminating all off-forum sales links (ebay, craigslist, etc).

 

[Egg Born Son]

.
I think were pretty lucky to have this site as a resource. Who doesn't learn here? And as Barry stated, it is a different time. When the dvx100 hit the scene, it was new and amazing, no other video cam had 24p in that price range. People were excited, new tech, everyone was eager to learn this cam and share experiences, and work. Ten years later, people are no longer sharing the excitment they once had with this new tech, Everything is so competative now, and when people read something they don't agree with, they seem to lash out and argue their moot point. I can see where Paul misses the way things were, who doesn't? But I don't share the same opinion as him about the mods ruling with an iron fist either.

It's to bad Paul, you feel this way because your truely an asset to this site, I've read countless posts from you always interested in reading your take on a subject. I guess if your not happy here there's only one thing left to do, and thats move on. And thats cool, people need to respect your decision., and the way you feel. But it wouldn't a bad idea to take into consideration some of the above posts before you decide to write dvx user off. Best of luck either way

You make a good point. Those who started on the DVX100 are for the most part no longer the upstarts, they are the establishment. I too am grateful for those, including Paul, who have stuck around to pass on their sage knowledge and experience to those of us starting out, helping us to avoid or make better use of the mistakes everyone makes in the beginning.

 

[Paul Hudson]

I am grateful for this forum and the information posted here. My goal is not to leave or even change anything if the majority believes the right course if being followed. I just had an observation and if it results in slight changes to the marketplace great if not no one is going to suffer greatly.

I do appreciate the Mods and commend them on their efforts and willingness to listen if not change. Viva la DVX.

 

[starcentral]

I've read through every post in this thread. I personally think the level of moderation is balanced. Mods do a great job, in my opinion. Thank you!

I pretty much agree with all of starcentral's suggestions about the marketplace.



I would suggest starting with 5-7 categories, using starcentral's descriptions-by-examples above:

* Cameras/Lenses/Accessories
* Support
* Lighting/Grip
* Sound
* Post-Production
* Other (and this could be the place you post large lots)

I also like the idea of a 30 day wait period before you can post. It reinforces the community aspect. However, like Gary, I think long and hard before considering a purchase from someone who I don't see around here regularly so I don't think the wait period is absolutely necessary. It could definitely help eliminate "riffraff" posts, though.

I also like the idea of eliminating all off-forum sales links (ebay, craigslist, etc).

Thanks I'm glad someone agrees.

The trick is to just do it. Try it. And see the results.

Remember its always easy to change it back to the way it was.

 

[dregenthal]

I guess there’s always one in every crowd . . . that would, I’m afraid, be me.

Not for nothing but there’s already people that would have achieved the minimums to post in the Marketplace “proposed changes” by virtue of the number of their posts in this thread . . .
Still, I would be in favor of requiring a minumum number of useful posts before permitting a new member to place his/her notice in the MarketPlace.

As far as I’m concerned, all the input (here) from everyone has value but, being a simple person I like things better when they are simple . . . here’s my take (and singular contribution to the conversation):

I was disappointed back when we began began to allow eBay posting in the MarketPlace . . . I’d like to see that decision reversed.

I disagree with the argument that using the search feature is cumbersome. No doubt there are those who are technically challenged but for the most part, people that actually contribute to this site don’t fall into that category.

The behavior I dislike is the member that posts 4 or 5 different items in separate threads thereby effectively “owning” the first page.

Anyhow, the Mods are great. The effort to find that “middle of the road” isn’t always easy, and sure, we can always strive to “make things better” but (and this has all already been said) . . . They do a good (and thankless) job, which I appreciate.

It’s not eBay (or B&H), It’s a community.

The marketplace gives people a place to say, “Hey I’ve got such & such for sale.”

It’s free.

There will always be someone that figures out how to game the system (circumvent the rules or intent), i.e., "No bumps without a price adjustment". So a guy purposely starts high then proceeds to mark it down twenty-five, or five, or whatever, bucks throughout the day or across the course of several days.

I’d propose we go the opposite direction (regarding bumps):

DON'T PERMIT THEM, PERIOD!

It’s a bulletin board, post your notice and move on.
If you change your mind about something, or the price,then fine . . . edit your singular post.
This way no changes to the software are required and nobody enjoys or engineers an advantage over others.
When the item is sold or no longer available is should be deleted (as opposed to marking it SOLD).

That’s it. If I’ve offended anyone please accept my apology.

 

[Dave ©]

I'm offended*















* Psst. I'm not really offended. I just said so in order to bump this post to the top

 

[Jason Ramsey]

It’s a bulletin board, post your notice and move on.
If you change your mind about something, or the price,then fine . . . edit your singular post.
This way no changes to the software are required and nobody enjoys or engineers an advantage over others.
When the item is sold or no longer available is should be deleted (as opposed to marking it SOLD).

Just wanted to play devil's advocate on these two points...

Wouldn't allowing a single-post-and-move-on, be potentially biased towards those who do use the marketplace more frequently (in particular, those who skate the line of using it for commercial purposes) than the "Hey, I have this for sale" casual user of the MP?

The only problem with deletion is that we then remove the archive. Part of trying to avoid folks getting scammed is telling them to do their research. If they go to search for a user or an email address from a potential buyer, etc... and we aren't helping to maintain a paper trail of transactions, then that would be counter-productive. On the other hand, if a thread is closed and marked as "sold", it will quickly fall off the first several pages, and will still be publicly available for reference in the future for any reason necessary.

 

[David Saraceno]

I was disappointed back when we began began to allow eBay posting in the MarketPlace . . . I’d like to see that decision reversed.

I don't like eBay listings, or links to Craigslist. The compromise is we close the thread but still keep visible. But I'd like to see them gone.

The behavior I dislike is the member that posts 4 or 5 different items in separate threads thereby effectively “owning” the first page.

I try to stop this, but it's hard once they've done it. I am attempting to limit sales to five open threads at one time, and I would prefer only two or three.

There will always be someone that figures out how to game the system (circumvent the rules or intent), i.e., "No bumps without a price adjustment". So a guy purposely starts high then proceeds to mark it down twenty-five, or five, or whatever, bucks throughout the day or across the course of several days.

I had an extended exchange with one guy who was selling at $15,000 item, and tried to bump it by lowering the price a dollar a day.

Eventually it was deleted.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[starcentral]

I am attempting to limit sales to five open threads at one time, and I would prefer only two or three.

A two-post maximum per section is also one of the rules in the other forums I am part of and assisted in setting up initially. But to impose a max like 2-3 you really need to establish categories.


CAMERAS & EQUIP (all video/photo cameras)
CAMERA ACCESSORIES (matte box, rails, LCD monitors, EVF)
LENSES (lenses, lens filters)
SUPPORT (dolly, cranes, jibs, tripods, heads)
GRIP (stands, sandbags, booms, clamps)
LIGHTING (lights, gels, frames, fabrics)
SOUND (mics, hardware, recorders)
POST-PRODUCTION (hardware and software)
ALL-OTHER (misc. filmmaking related items: books, DVD's)

 

[BrianMurphy]

Well I came back to catch up on the thread. It seems Paul has said his piece. A couple others had their moment including me.Yet one person continues the journey to enlighten the rest of us on how the group is missing the boat and a new system with a new mod (wink wink...say no more say no more) with new ideas is just what is needed to get what seems to work fairly well considering Barry's informed comments and David's patience.
I say close the thread.

 

[dregenthal]

Just wanted to play devil's advocate on these two points...

Wouldn't allowing a single-post-and-move-on, be potentially biased towards those who do use the marketplace more frequently (in particular, those who skate the line of using it for commercial purposes) than the "Hey, I have this for sale" casual user of the MP?

Maybe, maybe not. I’m looking at it as a problem with people initiating (or inviting) bumps for no reason other than to move themselves to the front of the line to the disadvantage of others. “No bumps” would resolve that.

Personally I’m not crazy about people using the MarketPlace for commercial enterprise but that’s probably a topic for another discussion. If somebody has a raft of personal stuff vs. a member with fewer (or one) item to sell, I don’t really see that as an advantage (especially if there’s a member who might be looking for that stuff).

If a “no bump” concept is universally applied then then the member posting multiple items is going to see his/her stuff move to page 2 and beyond just as quickly as the person who only has one item to sell.

The only problem with deletion is that we then remove the archive. Part of trying to avoid folks getting scammed is telling them to do their research. If they go to search for a user or an email address from a potential buyer, etc... and we aren't helping to maintain a paper trail of transactions, then that would be counter-productive. On the other hand, if a thread is closed and marked as "sold", it will quickly fall off the first several pages, and will still be publicly available for reference in the future for any reason necessary.

Hadn't thought about that . . . I agree.

And, yep, I also think we should close this thread--I've already said more than I'd intended.

Best.

 

[Dave ©]

Wouldn't allowing a single-post-and-move-on, be potentially biased towards those who do use the marketplace more frequently (in particular, those who skate the line of using it for commercial purposes) than the "Hey, I have this for sale" casual user of the MP?

Not trying to be difficult...I genuinely want to know. Does it matter? What's the problem that needs to be solved?

I think the focus of this conversation should be placed primarliy on the consumer (potential buyer) of information here rather than on the producer (would-be seller). If the consumer can find items for sale more easily, both buyer and seller win (theoretically, more items will sell). So...

* Is it to the advantage or disadvantage to the consumer if more items are posted for sale? Advantage overall, I would think, but I can also see some disadvantages.
* Is it to the advantage or disadvantage to the consumer to have a few categories for browsing? Advantage, I would think.
* Is it advantageous to the consumer to see post titles with prefixes? Not so sure.
* Is it better for consumers to have "heavy-handed" moderation on sellers (e.g. limited bumps, limited # of posts per seller)? I don't know, probably because I don't see the problem with how it works today.
* Is it better for consumers to have minimum-days-on-site thresholds for sellers (e.g. 30 days before one can post an item in the marketplace)? Again, I don't know. I think the data would need to be examined or someone like David, who has more insights into seller behavior, would need to assess this. Are there disproportionately more illegitimate items for sale from new DVXers? If so, a limit probably makes sense.