MKH416 very disapointed

Please excuse the very long post, but hopefully the following might be useful to some...

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First a little background:

In a mixing console or mic preamp, a "trim pot" (pot = potentiometer, or gain control) is a level control at or near the earliest stage of a signal path. Its purpose is to adjust gain before it hits the later stages of the signal path (equalizer, output stages, A/D converter, etc.) in order to A: prevent distortion, and/or B: optimize signal-to-noise ratio.

A mixer or preamp's "pad" does the pretty much the same thing, but is a switch as a rule, not a pot, most often reducing gain by about -20db or so. It is 'ahead' of the trim pot in the preamp/console's signal path, and is thus the first line of defense against preamp overload/distortion. Thus the GAIN setting in a camcorder's menu would be somewhat more accurately described as a variable pad, not a trimmer, since the settings are fixed.

So much for semantics... : )


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The next stage of gain control is the main volume control - the channel volume fader or knob on a mixer, or the knob you see on the outside of a camcorder (mixers usually have yet another control for the output stage, but not cameras). The HVX200a's audio block diagram (presumably similar to the HPX300's) appears to indicate that the "gain" menu item is indeed an early, "pad" type control and that the outside volume knobs are much later in the circuit. So the setup drill for these types of camcorders would be:

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-Set the "gain" menu item with a given mic (mics vary hugely in nominal output) so that a proper record level (average meter indication of about -12 to -16db, and all peaks safely below clipping) is achieved with the physical volume knob position at 45-65% of its rotation.

-If that knob position doesn't produce enough gain, change the gain menu item to a *lower* number (from -40 to -50 for example). If the knob position produces too much level, switch the gain setting to a higher number.

-Then use the volume knob again to fine tune the level so it's ideal. The gain menu changes go in big jumps, so the knob is there to allow you to make the smaller adjustments between the steps.

-If you've got the level knobs at about 45-65% of their travel and the level indicated on the meters is as described above, you're done.

-Regarding the GAIN menu numbers: they indicate the *nominal output level of the microphone* (-30, -40, -50, etc.). A mic that puts out a nominal -30db is 10db *hotter* than a mic that puts out -40db (remember we're talking negative numbers here). So, changing the menu GAIN setting from a LOWER number (like -40) to a HIGHER number (like -30) DECREASES gain. You're telling the camera to expect a 10db hotter mic than at the -40 setting.


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Note: the noise in any device like a camera or mic always exists in a *fixed* amount.

No individual gain change will actually increase or decrease noise - it and the signal will stay in exact proportion wherever the gain is set. But *combinations of more than one gain control* can. So, for example, if you've got the gain menu set very low (a higher number, like -30), and you have to 'make up' the gain by turning up the volume knob way up, you will increase noise because you are amplifying noise-generating electronic components inbetween the two gain controls (low gain early, noisy bits in the middle, high gain later).

The solution is to raise early gain (menu) and lower late gain (knob). Now, the noise-generating stages inbetween, which are still making the same amount of noise they always do, are effectively made less so because the signal has been increased *before* the noisy bits get in the game, and then reduced *after* them. All the noise generated by them thus decreases with the lowering of the volume knob. The chain of events looks like this:

FIXED GAIN, normal or low level mic (or quiet source)--->VARIABLE gain menu setting--->FIXED noise generating circuitry--->VARIABLE volume knob

With a hotter (louder) mics or source material, distortion is the issue, not noise (the hot signal will literally drown out the noise). The end result should be the same though: volume knobs at 45-65%. But the gain structure situation described above is *reversed* to avoid distortion:

FIXED GAIN loud mic level (or loud source)--->VARIABLE gain menu setting--->FIXED circuit distortion threshold--->VARIABLE volume knob

So the GAIN MENU setting can decrease the signal *before the distortion generating bits* as the VOLUME KNOB SETTING restores the signal to achieve manageable record levels.

In the first example (lower level mic/signal), distortion is largely irrelevant and in the second example (higher level mic/signal) noise is largely irrelevant.

May all your audio be clean, quiet and hot!
 
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Nobody has asked the other obvious question - is the input on the camera set to line level or mic level. Reading the OP's posts leads me to believe it's set at line-level not mic level.

I use a 416 all the time and it sounds great so if everything else is set correctly I would get your camera checked. If you bought your 416 used, you should also send it off to Sennheiser for a checkup.

Phil
 
Nobody has asked the other obvious question - is the input on the camera set to line level or mic level. Reading the OP's posts leads me to believe it's set at line-level not mic level.

I use a 416 all the time and it sounds great so if everything else is set correctly I would get your camera checked. If you bought your 416 used, you should also send it off to Sennheiser for a checkup.

Phil

Good point Phil. I do those things so automatically I forget people aren't thinking of all the little details that could greatly affect your signal.

FYI anyone:

• Mic level inputs are louder to boost up the microphone's signal.
• Line level inputs are set much lower because a line level signal off a nice mixer will be much louder. When you set your camera to line level you are also reducing the hiss level, and achieving a sweeter signal to noise ratio. This is why it's almost always better to use a mixer, even if you think your camera alone sounds pretty good.
 
Plugging a mic into a line input would result in such a low level as to almost inaudible. Like 50-60 db down from normal. Plus, 48v phantom power is needed for the MKH, and it doesn't exist on line inputs so it's really a moot point...
 
The thing with resistors is a 'pad' designed to reduce level - NOT to reduce noise.

First thing to do is try another mic - anything with an XLR output will do. If the level remains poor, then it's the camera. If the new mic is better than the AKG, level wise - it's a mic issue. Until you have isolated where the fault is, you can't move forward.
P
 
@Ted: Not sure about the 300, but on most of the other Panasonic cameras (pro-sumer level) you can plug into the XLR's and set them for either line or mic level input and still have phantom either way. And the complaint from the OP is that the levels were way too low, so that is what led me to suspect that the little switch on the front of the camera is set to line, not mic.

Phil
 
@Ted: Not sure about the 300, but on most of the other Panasonic cameras (pro-sumer level) you can plug into the XLR's and set them for either line or mic level input and still have phantom either way. And the complaint from the OP is that the levels were way too low, so that is what led me to suspect that the little switch on the front of the camera is set to line, not mic.

Phil

Well, phantom power aside, mic level would be so ridiculously low into a +4dbm line in that it didn't sound like that was the problem to me. The gain menu being off by 20 db or so certainly did...
 
1. Set cam to -50db.
2. Switch phantom to "on".
3. Set dials to 12 o'clock (dot/arrow/detent on knob pointing straight up).
4. Plug in mic and have a second XLR cable set aside and ready.
5. Turn on cam.
6. Speak in microphone, holding it a normal distance (1 foot or so) away from your mouth.
7. Watching LCD, what do you see on the levels? Are the bars bouncing into the last 1/4 of the meter? If so, then put on headphones and listen to the sound quality. It should be more or less "excellent". If NOT, then turn off the camera and replace the XLR cable with the other cable. Now repeat the test.

Did this solve it? If not then continue on.

8. If you do all this and still do not get good sound, then you want to find a friend who has ANYTHING that records audio, and supplies phantom power. In another words, DVX, small audio recorder (like Tascam or Marantz)... or even a sound board. If you're into video then you surely have somebody that you know, or work with, that has this.
9. Test the microphone on their equipment.
10. If the mic sounds great on their equipment then you have a problem with your camera. If you get the same result on their equipment then you have a problem with your 416.
 
I agree with Matt. Walk through those steps to troubleshoot.
I have used the 416 for years and really love that mic. It's a real workhorse.

As for using a mixer with Panasonic's HPX series, here's a little test with the HPX170. With the 300, you should be getting audio this clean:

 
1. Set cam to -50db.
2. Switch phantom to "on".
3. Set dials to 12 o'clock (dot/arrow/detent on knob pointing straight up).
4. Plug in mic and have a second XLR cable set aside and ready.
5. Turn on cam.
6. Speak in microphone, holding it a normal distance (1 foot or so) away from your mouth.

Just one little quibble with the otherwise good advice above: it's advisable to plug the mic in first, *then* turn on the phantom power. The power transient that occurs when plugging a mic into an already powered input can (in admittedly rare cases) cause damage to the mic or preamp. Like I said, it's not very likely to 'get you', but better to do it by the book and be safe. Repeatedly doing it the other way increases the chances of a problem over time.
 
Ted... I'm sorry I didn't mention that specifically because yeah... that is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves when somebody else is running boom while I'm shooting or mixing! I'll see a guy pull the XLR off the boom while everything else is active (or plug in while everything is active)... and I think "hmm... dude... you only get a couple stupid moves like that before I cross you off the list"...

Notice in my numbered list that the mic is plugged in while the cam is still OFF... even though I suggested checking the phantom setting before plugging the mic in... I meant to do this while the cam is dead... hence 4. plug in mic... 5. turn on cam.

Your advice was also good... I just thought this guy sounded like he may benefit from a simple, itemized check-list. :)
 
Notice in my numbered list that the mic is plugged in while the cam is still OFF... even though I suggested checking the phantom setting before plugging the mic in... I meant to do this while the cam is dead... hence 4. plug in mic... 5. turn on cam.

Oops...missed that little detail : )

But like you said, it's well worth noting anyway that it's otherwise best to plug and unplug mics with phantom off. Not to mention muted and/or off input/record mode as well...

I have to admit than in my thousands of (mostly) studio sessions and (fewer) shoots many a mic has been inadvertently 'hot-plugged' on my watch by me and my assistants, and gotten away with. So, it's certainly not a guaranteed death sentence to the gear to do it, but the smarter guys remember not to...
 
Not necessarily - it could be the version requiring 12V T-power.

Well, I'll have to confess that after several decades in the field I have yet to hear of T-power until today. Maybe that makes me an ignoramus, maybe not.

So...could you please 'splain me what it is?
 
Well, I'll have to confess that after several decades in the field I have yet to hear of T-power until today. Maybe that makes me an ignoramus, maybe not.

So...could you please 'splain me what it is?

Still the guy has not confirmed that his mic is NOT T power. We need feedback if he's going to get any help.
 
Well, I'll have to confess that after several decades in the field I have yet to hear of T-power until today. Maybe that makes me an ignoramus, maybe not.

So...could you please 'splain me what it is?

In a nutshell, T-powered mics are powered with 12 VDC across the signal leads, usually XLR pin 2 positive and XLR pin 3 negative (though some systems reverse them). Plug a dynamic or ribbon mic into a t-power source and current flows through the coil or ribbon, probably with severe damage. Contrast to phantom where 48VDC is applied across the signal leads and ground, with BOTH pins 2 & 3 positive, pin 1 negative. Since both pins 2 and 3 are at the same potential, no current flows in the coil of a dynamic mic or the element of a ribbon mic when plugged into it - the voltage vanishes like a ghost as far as they're concerned, hence the name "phantom."
 
Thanks. Sounds nice and scary re: ribbons! Happily I've never had occasion to worry about it. I use RCA 44s, 77s, Coles, Royers, etc. fairly frequently for music recording...

What kinds/brands of preamps/recording devices use T-power? What kinds/brands of mics require it?

I'm thinking this might be part of Nagra-world, which I have almost no firsthand experience with...
 
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