PappasArts
Veteran
4:2:2. Sweet!
You can record with the door open, I have been doing that way on my testings. It was easier than opening and closing to check results. I know, on most cameras you can't.
Pappas
MJPEG 70mbits+ 1080p settings
- Thread starter PappasArts
- Start date
4:2:2. Sweet!
You can record with the door open, I have been doing that way on my testings. It was easier than opening and closing to check results. I know, on most cameras you can't.
Pappas
I've got to laugh that we're on the verge of 4:2:2 and people start talking about 4:4:4...I mean come on! Doesn't full raster HD intraframe 4:2:2 currently more than ten times a GH1 body? And with this sensor size...forget it...way more! I can't imagine our cards will handle 4:4:4 anyhow...4:2:2 will make me plenty happy!
PappasArts
Veteran
At 80Mbits in MJpeg is astonishing. Just ignoring the 4:2:0 4:2:2 blah for a moment. In a good codec like this, it doesn't look or handle like 4:2:0 in AE, more like 4:2:2. I can push the heck of these files. However it's funny. I will take the 4:2:2. It's all gravy either way we slice it.
Pappas
Pappas
Joe Calabrese
Well-known member
I keep seeing that the 1080p High bitrate MJPEG footage from the camera isn't captured at 1080p, but captured at 720p and upressed in camera, but any AVCHD footage is native (either 1080 or 720p) is this true? I'm really confused.
PappasArts
Veteran
Well the 1080 feels different. However if that upscale is going on before the encoder, then it makes it more than just plain old vanilla upscale.
Now the 720P is gorgeous, and with 70 to 80Mbits being thrown at that frame makes for a better compressed image than a 1080P at the same Mbit rate. Either way, it's all gravy, you know!
Pappas
Pappas, thanks for your answers up above. I understand now. I'm concerned about the 1440x1080 vs 1920x1080. I never did like the HDCAM and DVCProHD pixel aspect ratios. Is 1920x1080 native recording with square pixels not possible? We're stuck with having to unsqueeze in post? Or is 1440x1080 really just for slower cards? I plan on getting the Sandisk Extreme III 16GB Class 10 since they are the highest rated by Tom's Hardware.
Also, can someone shoot a comparison of the new AVCHD settings and the new MJPEG settings, using the same subject, lens, aperture, resolution, etc. to see which one looks better? It seems that MJPEG should be better (and with 4:2:2 that's a huge benefit), but it would be nice to know which will be better once and for all.
Lastly, is there any news on getting 24p (23.976) working correctly with MJPEG?
Also, can someone shoot a comparison of the new AVCHD settings and the new MJPEG settings, using the same subject, lens, aperture, resolution, etc. to see which one looks better? It seems that MJPEG should be better (and with 4:2:2 that's a huge benefit), but it would be nice to know which will be better once and for all.
Lastly, is there any news on getting 24p (23.976) working correctly with MJPEG?
Same as Mike@af. After all this following of the GH1 hack I can say I wouldn't mind sticking to a 720p30 MJPEG with 422 at the bitrates tested.
I still don't entirely understand how everything on the ptool works. I've been using the EOSHD settings, and don't entirely understand why pappas is using the 1440 setting. If this setting makes for decent recording times (as depending on the card I can only get decent recording time if I don't go too wide and there's not a lot of detail), then I'll try it.
Still, I've been shooting at 1920 wide, for most of the shots it seems to be working. One card really never stopped recording, the rest (same class if not higher but different brands) couldn't last. I also have not managed to go wide with the kit lens at all, it seems to be eating up camera processing power. At least it feels like it.
Would a 720p size make for longer recording times? Or not as the bitrate is the same?
Also is there ANY program out there other than Neoscene or Voltaic that can convert mts files? mpeg can't, I may have heard that adobe media encoder can but I don't know if it goes from 420-422 like neoscene and if that's a necessary step at this point.
Settings for a 720p mjpeg at 30 fps would be awesome. I would sacrifice native 25p in mjpeg (unless it's possible cause again I SWEAR I could've read that somewhere here) for that kind of quality and to skip the transcoding step.
The initial question is Barry Green seems to be having trouble with even the fastest cards, not allowing more than a few seconds on mjpeg mode as I gather. Pappasarts seems to be getting away with gold. Is it a question of 1440 vs. 1920? and further, if it is, would the same difference apply to 1920 vs 1440 vs 1280?
Again I'm sorry I know this topic is flooded with questions, but it is confusing and a bit intimidating.
Thanks for everyone's efforts hope I can do my part.
I still don't entirely understand how everything on the ptool works. I've been using the EOSHD settings, and don't entirely understand why pappas is using the 1440 setting. If this setting makes for decent recording times (as depending on the card I can only get decent recording time if I don't go too wide and there's not a lot of detail), then I'll try it.
Still, I've been shooting at 1920 wide, for most of the shots it seems to be working. One card really never stopped recording, the rest (same class if not higher but different brands) couldn't last. I also have not managed to go wide with the kit lens at all, it seems to be eating up camera processing power. At least it feels like it.
Would a 720p size make for longer recording times? Or not as the bitrate is the same?
Also is there ANY program out there other than Neoscene or Voltaic that can convert mts files? mpeg can't, I may have heard that adobe media encoder can but I don't know if it goes from 420-422 like neoscene and if that's a necessary step at this point.
Settings for a 720p mjpeg at 30 fps would be awesome. I would sacrifice native 25p in mjpeg (unless it's possible cause again I SWEAR I could've read that somewhere here) for that kind of quality and to skip the transcoding step.
The initial question is Barry Green seems to be having trouble with even the fastest cards, not allowing more than a few seconds on mjpeg mode as I gather. Pappasarts seems to be getting away with gold. Is it a question of 1440 vs. 1920? and further, if it is, would the same difference apply to 1920 vs 1440 vs 1280?
Again I'm sorry I know this topic is flooded with questions, but it is confusing and a bit intimidating.
Thanks for everyone's efforts hope I can do my part.
PappasArts
Veteran
Hey Mike,
Well the 1440X1080 made it able to record. If you did straight 1920X1080, it would stop after 2 seconds. However squeezing the image at this Bit rate shouldn't be an issue. We may find that this is related to another setting that isn't right. Its funny, a 720P at 70mbits works great. However a 1920X1080 at 70mbits stops the camera, same settings and all. Squeeze that same image to 1440X1080 and that 70Mbits records without a problem.
Now the bits are same, however the GH1 isn't dealing with the 1920x1080 frame size right, I gather, but will deal with the 1440x1080 or the first squeeze process I did that was 1920x800. I find this odd, and have no answer to this- theories, just no answers.
MJpeg is better than AVCHD, not efficient as a codec compared to AVCHD. AVCHD cuts corners like GOP to get more out of every Mbit- this is necessary for the market it's aimed at. As for Mjpeg, I know boat loads of efx and post production guys that work in MJPEG files for big projects all the time. It's just generates a very large file. However gorgeous images....
Pappas
I discovered that if I use the 1280 settings I cant record for even a second but with 1440 ticked with the same settings I can.
indeed as pappa's points out if i drop the shutter speed it does get write error.
I have tried 3 class 6 cards with the 1440 setting and only one works (being a verbatim) without a problem.
Any general editing program corrects the aspect ratio in post so it does look like full 1080 hd in the end.
I agree with you Pappas even before the hack I was using mjpeg more as it produced more detail (if with grainy artifacts back then)
720P 80mbs ive had no write error either. 1280 just dont work for me right now.
PappasArts
Veteran
Hi,
Maybe the post to Mike might answer some of the questions you posed. The bit rate this 1440x1080 is running at 70 to 80mbits data rate. If you set it for 1920x1080, the camera would stop in two second. This 1440x1080 allows more bits to be allocated to the bigger image. Like I said it doesn't make sense one bandwidth of data for 720 at 70mbits works flawless, however go 1929x1080, and it stops. Reduce it to 1440X1080 with same setting at 70mbits, and it works. Don't have the answer on this- unfortunately.
Pappas
I'm getting good results with 422 MJPEG 720p using the EOSHD settings. The bitrate is around 30Mbps and I can record 7 minutes of video in a 2GB file. I'm using a Class 6 Transend 16GB SD card, and have had no recording errors yet. In-camera playback, however, fails for some movies with a card Read Error. Image quality is excellent, and the 422 color looks noticeably more realistic than the 720p AVCHD color.
In an earlier patch attempt, I tried using the EOSHD MJPEG settings at the recommended 1920x1080p, but it recorded corrupted video frames with large purple rectangles obscuring the image. I don't know if this was because my Class 6 card was too slow, but my feeling is that 1080p MJPEG has not yet been shown to be 100% reliable.
Regarding the 1440x1080p mod, the PTool v3.36 422 patch doesn't have the MJPEG 1280p Encoder Width and MJPEG 1280p Encoder Buffer options. Does the 1440 mod still work without these two patches?
In an earlier patch attempt, I tried using the EOSHD MJPEG settings at the recommended 1920x1080p, but it recorded corrupted video frames with large purple rectangles obscuring the image. I don't know if this was because my Class 6 card was too slow, but my feeling is that 1080p MJPEG has not yet been shown to be 100% reliable.
Regarding the 1440x1080p mod, the PTool v3.36 422 patch doesn't have the MJPEG 1280p Encoder Width and MJPEG 1280p Encoder Buffer options. Does the 1440 mod still work without these two patches?
Last edited:
PappasArts
Veteran
720 at 70 to 80Mbits is like having 1080 at around 140ish mbits. It's creamy goodness. That's much better compression data rate at 720 than 1080 at the same 70 to 80mbits. I have already noticed that my 720Ps at 80mbits are smoother than the 1080's at the same Mbits. Now 1080 at 100+ mbits, this would go the other way, and the 1080 would be better or equal in having the same Mbits for frame size- Hmmm that would be so awesome...
I'm going to do some scaling tests of 80mbits 720 vs 1080 80mbits just to see how much they are different. I did notice that 1600iso shots look better in 1080P than the 720P 1600 at around 80mbits. However I need to run more clear tests on this before truly thinking so. That said my color chart showed cleaner artifact free of the 720P vs the 1080 at the same Mbits.
Pappas
I have so many settings copied over, I'm sooooo sorry, but can one direct me to the settings that provide the 1440 and the 720p?
Also the answer to mike's post was a bit confusing as he said 720 = no write error. 1280 = problem.
Isn't 720p 1280 wide? Or are we talking about the box to tick? encoder 1280>1920?
Thanks again, just soooo many settings floating about.
Also the answer to mike's post was a bit confusing as he said 720 = no write error. 1280 = problem.
Isn't 720p 1280 wide? Or are we talking about the box to tick? encoder 1280>1920?
Thanks again, just soooo many settings floating about.
Thanks for your explanation Pappas.
It sounds like we just need a proper 23.976fps in MJPEG mode then. I don't care about the less recording time/more hard drive space being used if the quality is better. How much of this high bitrate footage could I fit on a 16GB card?
The footage you've shown and the frame grabs look amazing, but has anyone done any tests of these MJPEG high bitrate settings at 1440x1080 vs the new AVCHD high bitrate settings at 1920x1080 (from a GH1 with same subject, lens, aperture, etc.)? I'm just really concerned about the squeeze part of it taking away some of the resolution.
It sounds like we just need a proper 23.976fps in MJPEG mode then. I don't care about the less recording time/more hard drive space being used if the quality is better. How much of this high bitrate footage could I fit on a 16GB card?
The footage you've shown and the frame grabs look amazing, but has anyone done any tests of these MJPEG high bitrate settings at 1440x1080 vs the new AVCHD high bitrate settings at 1920x1080 (from a GH1 with same subject, lens, aperture, etc.)? I'm just really concerned about the squeeze part of it taking away some of the resolution.
PappasArts
Veteran
Hey Mike,
Think about optical anamorphic. That is truly all over the place in reduction of image quality. However digital squeeze at this bit rate is much safer in my opinion. It's just another form of compression if you look at it. We are only talking 280 pixels in both directions on the Horizontal to a 1920x1080 pixel wide/tall image.
AVCHD GOP is worse to an image than a slight squeeze at a High Mbit rate I would think. If I got my hands on some Hawk anamorphic, I wouldn't think twice to squeeze my image optically ( analog style ). Same thing with the Mbit rate at this level, it doesn't concern me that much. However Tester13 might find that there is a setting that makes this obsolete to do.
BTW, as I'm writing this, I'm reviewing test footage shot tonight at 1000 to 1600iso and can't believe this is from the GH1. It's remarkable to see at 1080P MJpeg at 70ish Mbits.
Pappas
Last edited:
Phew!finder
Member
Hi everyone great work and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but does 1920x1080 70Mbps work @ 25fps? Or does the camera still crap out after 2 seconds?
I set 720p, haven't tried the 1440 yet.
As for 720p with pappas's settings...
Oh my effin god.
I am happy. One card seems to be working up to 3 and half or 4 minutes. It's a class 6, and some generic brand. The other transcend class 6 now can't last more than a second.
But on the card that works, damn. I'm happy. I just want PAL.
But still, I'll deal with it in post. I do have one question.
I am now shooting 30p. If I set my shutter to 60 it looks like crap, but it is 180 degrees. If I set it to 50, it looks way better to me, but it ain't 180 degrees.
I will definitely convert my final edit to 25 fps.
Questions are; what shutter speed do i shoot, i set to my capture fps? or I set shutter for 25fps?
Also, Do I convert before I edit? to 25p? Or at the end?
I know that it won't yield such great results, but I have to for work, and not many people can catch the motion artifacts that happen. For high movement that I can't convert I will of course fall back on avc 32mbit, but for mjpeg, what would be a good course of action for finishing to PAL?
T
As for 720p with pappas's settings...
Oh my effin god.
I am happy. One card seems to be working up to 3 and half or 4 minutes. It's a class 6, and some generic brand. The other transcend class 6 now can't last more than a second.
But on the card that works, damn. I'm happy. I just want PAL.
But still, I'll deal with it in post. I do have one question.
I am now shooting 30p. If I set my shutter to 60 it looks like crap, but it is 180 degrees. If I set it to 50, it looks way better to me, but it ain't 180 degrees.
I will definitely convert my final edit to 25 fps.
Questions are; what shutter speed do i shoot, i set to my capture fps? or I set shutter for 25fps?
Also, Do I convert before I edit? to 25p? Or at the end?
I know that it won't yield such great results, but I have to for work, and not many people can catch the motion artifacts that happen. For high movement that I can't convert I will of course fall back on avc 32mbit, but for mjpeg, what would be a good course of action for finishing to PAL?
T
There really is no good solution to getting 30p footage into 25p - only compromises and techniques that involve a bit of luck and a lot of time to get right. Pretty much all the same methods people were using on pre-24/25p 5D stuff - retiming in Shake/Compressor/After Effects/whatever, conforming footage to 24/25 (at the cost of slight overcrank and no sync sound), letting the NLEs do a down and dirty frame drop/blend, etc.
For MJPEG to be worthwhile for PAL production, we're really going to need a native 24/25 patch.
As for when to convert - I think the only sane option is to do it once your edit is locked. Otherwise you're going to spend hours (even days) converting all your dailies to 25p before editing.
For MJPEG to be worthwhile for PAL production, we're really going to need a native 24/25 patch.
As for when to convert - I think the only sane option is to do it once your edit is locked. Otherwise you're going to spend hours (even days) converting all your dailies to 25p before editing.