Mixing footage between dvx/24pa and Canon XL1-s

M

matthewd5

Veteran
Hello.

i have a pretty straightforward question...

i shoot with my dvx 100a's and i have started working with a super talented screenwriter who also happens to have a canon xl1-s

the issue is that he wants to use his canon as a third camera on occasion.

i know that you can't/shouldn't mix 24pa footage with his 29.97 interlaced but how can i explain it to him or show him that it is "bad" ?

he uses final cut pro and the footage seems to work ok on the timeline although he has had problems with my anamorphic footage shot with both the pan-anamorphic adaptor and the squeeze mode but i think that was just a project settings issue

his screenwriting/directing is superb and i think he has a serious chance of getting something into sundance but i don't want to sabotage his/our chances of our efforts not looking as good as possible and it just seems that using the canon footage will be a bad thing but i can see his side as he has this relatively new/expensive camera and wants to utilize it.

i haven't done any of the editing so far so i haven't taken any of his footage and put it into my editing setup to see how it looks up close on a project that i know is properly setup for 24pa.

links to facts and explanations etc. would be a plus.

matthew
 
Well I can't give you any links to exact facts, but I can tell you from my experience that mixing XL1-s footage with DVX 24pa is not good. The color with the gamma curve that the DVX uses and the XL1 is very different. I shoot most my stuff with a DVX but do have an XL1-s and have tried to use it in the same fashion that you are doing as an extra camera. You also have to remember that the XL1 16:9 mode is a squeeze mode so if you are shooting with an anamorphic adaptor it is going to look completely different. My advice is get another dvx for the shots you need it. But tell him that is so you stay consistent witch is really important, especially if you are planning a film out. And just tell him that you want to use the XL1 for behind the sense stuff for the future DVD.
 
aside from asthetics, what about just the basics of 24pa and 29.97i??

just that seems like it would create a rats nest of problems!

i bought my second dvx-100a in a good part because of this issue hoping it would do away with the issue.

i mean a project has to be set for 24pa or 29.97 right?

matthew
 
Wells' Thoughts

Wells' Thoughts

matthewd5 said:
he has had problems with my anamorphic footage shot with both the pan-anamorphic adaptor and the squeeze mode but i think that was just a project settings issue
Click to expand...
Hey Matthew,

Here are my thoughts. If he's having trouble with viewing 16:9 in a 4:3 timeline (while it would seem obvious to edit in a 16:9 timeline, I'm trying to be helpful... so here goes) I'm sure the are other ways of doing this, but Matt Sandstrom's (free) FCP plug-in package "Too Much Too Soon" has a filter called "Anamorphic" that basically de-anamorphises 16:9 to display correctly in a 4:3 timeline. If the issue is more complex than this, maybe hit up the FCP forum.. figured you do that anyways, eventually.

Well, mixing different cameras is normally avoided on any level of production.. At a certain level the cameras have more available options for matching vectors/contast but is generally to be avoided.

So as for documentation of this, I'll keep my eyes peeled. I don't have anything in mind, it's just kind of "understood" by television engineers, of which I am not, either. Maybe Broadcast Engineering magazine would have some articles online about this, I'm not sure.

Hope this helps.
 
i appreciate the ideas on this but what i am looking for is a way to document why it is bad...i am in no way trying to find a workaround!

i am the dp, i have two dvx's and i am trying to do work that i am proud of and it just seems like sabotaging the picture quality.

am i being picky? i mean so much time is spent talking about how to get the best picture, to get a film look etc.

so why would you mix 24pa and 29.97i?

hell i'd rent a dvx-100a for a third camera if i really needed a third camera.

in this particular instance it was a mini documentary we are doing while also doing preproduction on a short.

matthew
 
Wells' Thoughts

Wells' Thoughts

No, you're not being picky. You've been brought on to shoot a project and a writer is dictating what tool you should use. You're trying to find documentation to tell him why that isn't a good idea because you know if you just tell him he may be a little insulted and you would rather have an amicable relationship rather than match wits over which DV camera is better. I feel your plight.

My feeling is, respectfully, your friend needs to come to grips with your ability to make good decisions altogether and stick with them for better or for worse. If determined you are the DP, then you make the call. Director/DP relationship, period.

I don't think you'll find an article that says specifically, "don't use 24p film-like video and 60i video-like video in the same project" because a lot of projects do that. Lots of projects are film and video. But, they look different. Unless you're using it for a desired aesthetic, then you shouldn't use it unnecessarily. I don't think it's bad, it's just different. And, somebody better have a good reason to go after, "different".

I think that your friend, after viewing screen tests, should explain to you why using a DVX and a XL1S best fits the project. If he doesn't offer a rational conclusion besides, "well, I paid for this camera and I intend on using it" then use a people friendly way of telling him that's not a good reason. I think your friend should be rationalizing his opinion rather than you rationalizing yours.

Really.
 
thanks.

i have to just talk to him about it again. i thought we had it settled a couple weeks ago and then it came up all over again today...

matthew
 
Funny Story.

Funny Story.

Funny story:

I'll work mainly in the camera department today, but I once worked as a location sound mixer on an independent film shot by a guy whose real occupation was as a Foley Artist on some pretty big movies. We had the most terrible pissing contest over whether to record sound directly to DAT machine (which I owned) or directly to the DVX100 (which he provided) I told him the sound on camera would be fine, he was convinced the DAT would be superior. Basically, he was working cheap as a shooter and hoping to shred the directors pocket book by syncing the DAT sound in post production because he figured he would be asked to do the sound design because of his background. Well, this guy was nothing but trouble on the shoot and wasn't brought on for any post sound work. We did a little bit of sound directly to DAT for a couple of scenes that required it (They used a Steadicam SK2 and so we needed dual system audio) but everything else was recorded directly to the camera and monitored by me, via ENG cable. So, in the end, I got what I fought for and the director was very pleased with the results, probably unaware of what it would have cost him otherwise. Hope it works out for you. Sometimes you just have to lay down the law and hope for the best.. As always, have a diplomatic approach, of course.
 
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