Mixing 60i and 24p footage in 60i timeline

A

AndyBoy

New member
I apologize if this question has been answered before, but here goes:

How does one use 24p footage in a 60i timeline? I'm making skateboarding films with a DVX100b, and I film everything in 60i, but I would like to begin shooting b-roll and non-skating footage in 24p and mix these different frame rates in the same video.

These videos will appear on YouTube, so what I'm really asking for is the correct export settings to yield 24p footage that retains the filmic look without appearing stroby.

I will be editing with Adobe Priemere.

Thank you.
 
Shoot 24p standard, not 24pA. Then capture and edit in your 60i timeline just like you have been with all the other footage. Render/export as 60i.

The strobiness is part of the frame rate. It's what makes it look like "the movies."

In order to minimize the strobiness, you have to move the camera slowly. Slow pans, slow zooms, slow tilts. SLOW camera movements.
 
I would only use progressive material for YouTube.

You could convert everything to 60p by telecining the 24p to 60i and then deinterlacing and frame doubling the 60i material to 60p. I would stay away from converting 60i to 24p unless absolutely necessary because that conversion will always have big issues.
 
Cary Knoop said:
I would only use progressive material for YouTube.

You could convert everything to 60p by telecining the 24p to 60i and then deinterlacing and frame doubling the 60i material to 60p. I would stay away from converting 60i to 24p unless absolutely necessary because that conversion will always have big issues.
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No, that would make a giant mess of the footage, costing unnecessary resolution and exacerbating the "strobing" problems.

The 24p material is already "telecined" when it's recorded to tape by the DVX100 -- it's on tape as 24p, with pulldown, in a 60i stream. To edit it as 60i, you don't have to do anything further; you just drop the footage, as captured, into a 60i timeline. Don't remove pulldown; just leave the footage exactly as it is on tape.

You never, ever want to "deinterlace" 24p in a 60i stream. You'll end up with an equivalent of 30p, and 24p converts very poorly to 30p. You'll get ghosting and worse strobing.

You do raise a good point, in that YouTube will convert 60i DV to 30p for display, so it will be best to deliver as either all 24p in DV/SD, or to deliver as 60p. (I missed that he was planning to deliver to YouTube.)

Converting 60i to 24p is MUCH better than converting 24p to 30p. You will see a bit of a loss in vertical resolution, but other than that, 60i converts to 24p quite well. You simply have to make sure you disable any frame- or field-blending -- you want to making 24p frames out of single fields, not blended fields.

If you plan to deliver as 60p, you're talking about upconverting to HD -- in which case, you want to be editing on a 60p timeline from the start. I would strongly suggest it be a 720/60p timeline, then rendering out to 720/60p.

In THAT case, you DO want to shoot 24pA, you DO want to remove pulldown -- NOT DEINTERLACE, but remove pulldown -- and edit the footage as true 24p on that 60p timeline. You can also edit the 60i footage on that timeline. Again, disable any frame- or field-blending.
 
David Jimerson said:
The 24p material is already "telecined" when it's recorded to tape by the DVX100 -- it's on tape as 24p, with pulldown, in a 60i stream. To edit it as 60i, you don't have to do anything further; you just drop the footage, as captured, into a 60i timeline. Don't remove pulldown; just leave the footage exactly as it is on tape.
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Correct, if it is already telecined then leave it alone. I missed this was in the DVX100 section.


David Jimerson said:
You do raise a good point, in that YouTube will convert 60i DV to 30p for display, so it will be best to deliver as either all 24p in DV/SD, or to deliver as 60p. (I missed that he was planning to deliver to YouTube.)
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If you plan to deliver as 60p, you're talking about upconverting to HD -- in which case, you want to be editing on a 60p timeline from the start. I would strongly suggest it be a 720/60p timeline, then rendering out to 720/60p.
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I prefer to deliver in 60p UHD or 4K so you can get the highest possible bitrate from YouTube
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't exporting in 720p60p or UHD make the footage look worse, since that is not the DVX's picture quality or frame rate?
 
AndyBoy said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't exporting in 720p60p or UHD make the footage look worse, since that is not the DVX's picture quality or frame rate?
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It's the only way to get it to 60p.

Otherwise, it'll be converted to 30p upon upload, destroying both your 60i "live" look and your 24p.

DV upconverts reasonably well to 720p. It's less than twice the vertical resolution.
 
So, let's say I just stick to 60i. What are the ideal export settings for YouTube? Also, these may end up on Vimeo as well.
 
AndyBoy said:
So, let's say I just stick to 60i. What are the ideal export settings for YouTube? Also, these may end up on Vimeo as well.
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If you do not want to deinterlace there is no good quality solution!

I would always frame double and deinterlace (ideally with Yadif or better QTGMC).
 
I say again: never, never deinterlace 24p footage. If you're going to go that route, deinterlace your 60i FIRST - to 60p, not 30p -- and then edit the now-60p footage on a 60p timeline with the 24p. Export as 60p.
 
David, back in the day I use to get my 60i footage to look like 24p even though it was still actually stored as 60i (that's right, in the good old miniDV tape days) but I have wondered for a long time, now that mostly everything is 24p, is there a way to get that "60i look" (fast fluid motion like soap opera's use to be) but stored as 24p?

Say I make a film that is mastered in 24p and in there is an insert shot from a "handy cam" POV and I want that "60i" look even though no body these days really shoots 60i… is there a way to do that?

appreciate and answer, I know you know a lot about multi formats.
 
starcentral said:
David, back in the day I use to get my 60i footage to look like 24p even though it was still actually stored as 60i (that's right, in the good old miniDV tape days) but I have wondered for a long time, now that mostly everything is 24p, is there a way to get that "60i look" (fast fluid motion like soap opera's use to be) but stored as 24p?
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No. It's all about the number of motion samples per second. If you "store" the footage as 24p, you only have 24 motion samples. If you want it to look "live" like 60i or 60p, you need all 60.

You can "store" 24p within a 60i/60p stream because you can repeat frames, and thus preserve having only 24 motion samples (the same frame shown twice or three times is still only one motion sample, because nothing moves). But there's no way to get 36 additional motion samples from 24 pictures per second.

Hope that makes sense.
 
I SUPPOSE you could lay 60p out at 40% slo-mo on a 24p timeline, render it as 24p . . . and then speed that up 2.5x in a 60p timeline and get your full-speed 60p back . . . but I don't think it would be worth it. It wouldn't save you any file size, and your sound would be a PITA, so what would the advantage be?
 
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