minimum crew size for $30,000 - 50,000 indie ?

Randall_Oelerich

Randall_Oelerich

Veteran
For those who have produced/directed a feature length indie, what guidance can you give on the minimum production crew size (including director) to film a quality $30,000 to $50,000 microbudget indie horror? Granted, 'quality' is somewhat subjective, but I basically mean clean audio/dialogue, clean footage, non-harsh lighting, makeup so the actors have a good look on video. I want to keep the size as small as possible to keep the cost down (which goes up exponentially with each crew members, considering lodging and food, payroll taxes, etc), but I also want enough people involved to make the film look good, and not kill myself doing everything. Are there ADs and Sound/Boom crew willing to double for hauling equipment or helping with the craft table (to reduce crew size)?
randall
 
I have produced an indie feature, budget $290K. To answer your question with a question: how long is a piece of string? In other words, it entirely depends on the script and on the vision the director has. Is it is heavy on special effects and makeup and props, or is it mostly psychological? Are there tons of locations? Is it a minimalist type look, or is it a futuristic gothic costume look? Etc.

But. Sparking off this statement: "I want to keep the size as small as possible to keep the cost down (which goes up exponentially with each crew members, considering lodging and food, payroll taxes, etc)" I'd break it down like this:

Absolute minimum 3 people in total - this is barely doable, and needs A TON of pre-production work:

1)One Person: Director=Producer=DP=Lights=Cam Operator

2)Second Person: Sound (mixer, boom)

3)Third Person: Everything else

More realistic:

1) Director
2) Producer=Production Manager=Location Manager
3) DP=Lights=Cam Op
4) Sound=Mixer=Boom Op
5) Makeup
6) Set Decorator=Prop=Costume
7) Crafts (food prep and serv)
8) PA (everything else: grip, driver, go-fetch, all-around help)
9) PA (everything else: grip, driver, go-fetch, all-around help)

Realistically, I'd say 9 people. But you CAN do it with as few as 3. So anywhere between 3 and 9. "Keeping the cost down" involves some people not getting paid at all - like the Director and whomever the producer and director manage to rope in for free labor (FRIENDS! RELATIVES! STUDENTS!) as long as the folks can manage to do the job (so, for example, the roles of the two PAs, the Crafts, etc.). But even people who don't get paid, will still cost you money in food, transportation and the like.
 
Never done a feature, but I'd basically agree with the above. If you operate the cam yourself and serves as your own AD (keeping track of the shot list), which a very full plate for a director, then 6 to 9. You'd need an audio person, makeup, a grip, and two or three PAs to do everything else.
 
As many people as you need on each day.

There were times when it was just myself and a camera (pick up days).
Sometimes myself, producer, make-up, sound.
Average day was about eight on crew (mostly what corpse listed)
Biggest days I feel like were about twelve to fifteen just crew.

So, when you need it to be big, spend on those days. When you don't, don't spend.
 
Absolutely no chance you're going to get anything close to decent quality with a sound mixer who's also the boom op. Same with AC and DP (or DP and director, for that matter)
 
sonofaresiii said:
Absolutely no chance you're going to get anything close to decent quality with a sound mixer who's also the boom op. Same with AC and DP (or DP and director, for that matter)
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Absolutely not true. For most relatively uncomplicated scenes, there isn't much mixing to tape. You can get great results setting conservative levels into a high quality, 24-bit recorder, giving you clean tracks to mix in post.

It's also completely reasonable in a budget-constrained environment to pull focus yourself off of a monitor while operating in all but the most difficult situations. While having a double duty mixer/boom op and dp/operator/ac isn't ideal, it definitely doesn't preclude you from professional results if you take the proper time and care on set. Whatever you're lacking in resources and crew, you need to make up for with time, planning, and effort.
 
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gonzo_entertainment said:
Never done a feature, but I'd basically agree with the above. If you operate the cam yourself and serves as your own AD (keeping track of the shot list), which a very full plate for a director, then 6 to 9. You'd need an audio person, makeup, a grip, and two or three PAs to do everything else.
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Even if you are operating, I'd hire a first AC to pull focus, move the camera, do lens changes, etc. It's really hard (and wasteful, time-wise) to be messing with the camera while you're also trying to direct. It's pretty dang tough to do both in my experience.

With a first AC, you can just point them to the new location for the camera, a lens change, and they can spend the next 3-8 minutes moving and leveling the camera, and getting prepped to pull focus while you pay attention to the actual filmmaking and the actors. :)

Buzzed takes cost you time and money (and lose you performances you don't have money to lose).

If you've got your lead(s) on camera with dialogue, IMO you should always have a first AC. As far as crew members go, they're underpaid for what they do.

Best, Erich
 
stefancolson said:
Absolutely not true. For most relatively uncomplicated scenes, there isn't much mixing to tape. You can get great results setting conservative levels into a high quality, 24-bit recorder, giving you clean tracks to mix in post....
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I have to say I shot a short with a $1500 Sennheiser wireless lav system (2 lavs, wireless, battery powered, 2 transducers, 2 receivers), absolutely mind blowing quality, better than a $300 Rode shotgun boompole mic i own. Those little lav mics were just incredible in the quality of recorded dialog audio. And I simply jacked the two receivers into a Zoom H4n 24-bit portable recorder and the resulting audio just seems to be of professional quality. With two such systems, heck a dancing monkey could possibly record four actors's dialog all without a boompole/mic! :)
 
A properly boomed shotgun or hypercardiod mic will almost always sound miles better than lavs, but with a little post love you can do a lot with lavs. A good boom op / mixer with a multichannel recorder and a lav kit can cover most situations solo with great results.
 
I think you need to get some grip help to your DP. On interiors, setups take too long if the DP has to camera op and set flags, silks, bounce and focus lights. It won't be worth the savings. You will lose it in time and the number of pages you can shoot in a day. I also agree with the suggestion of having an AC. While your DP is working with your grip/gaffer on the setup, the AC can move camera and pull focus when you go. Think through those setups and who you need to make them.

No kidding, one pro grip and one gaffer will cut your setup times in half. They'll wrangle cables, dollie grip, help your set decorator and solve inumerable problems you won't even know you have. They may grumble about lack of gear, but that usually lasts one day. OH! No freakin' pizza!
 
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Erich Ocean said:
Even if you are operating, I'd hire a first AC to pull focus, move the camera, do lens changes, etc. It's really hard (and wasteful, time-wise) to be messing with the camera while you're also trying to direct. It's pretty dang tough to do both in my experience.

With a first AC, you can just point them to the new location for the camera, a lens change, and they can spend the next 3-8 minutes moving and leveling the camera, and getting prepped to pull focus while you pay attention to the actual filmmaking and the actors. :)

Buzzed takes cost you time and money (and lose you performances you don't have money to lose).

If you've got your lead(s) on camera with dialogue, IMO you should always have a first AC. As far as crew members go, they're underpaid for what they do.

Best, Erich
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I NEVER operate on my own shoots, but there are people who do. I generally have both a DP/Operator and a 1st AC. He was asking about minimums and there are certainly guys who are comfortable both operating and directing.
 
I think we need to keep in mind what the OP is asking. He's asking if he can get good quality footage from as small a crew as possible. It doesn't take an Einstein to know that everything will be easier and less stressful and better with a separate mixer and boom man, an addition of an AC position, a grip assigned exclusively to the DP, and the various suggestions people make. As the wise man said: Duh! Heck, why not have a full crew like on any hollywood studio production, think of the quality you'd get then!!!UNO!1! But err... did you notice that the OP is talking about a $30K-$50K production? Hello!!! Anybody home??!!! Hello!!!

Doing a feature on that kind of budget means compromise - period, end of story. Yes, Virginia, it means you are not going to be able to hire for every position George Lucas would. Time to wake up. Down here on earth, you will be stretched to the limit. It means the AC is a luxury you cannot afford. No, I'm not saying an AC wouldn't be marvelous to have. I'm saying a million dollars would also be marvelous to have. But on this kind of a budget, no you can't afford an AC. If your choice is between having an AC and no DP or the other way around, what would YOU choose, Sherlock? My stunningly strange choice is to have a DP and regretfully drop the AC.

But to each his/her own. I think good quality work can be done without an AC, without a separate mixer and boom op and so forth - it's not a question of what would be better in an ideal world. It's a question what is the bare minimum. On a $30K-$50K feature, the 9 positions I outlined, I consider the bare minimum for good quality product. It won't be Kubric level stuff, but it will be good stuff. Of course, this is assuming no huge special effects extravaganza with a million actors and locations, but I kinda figure that's not going to be the case on that kind of budget. Just my 2 cents.
 
OldCorpse said:
I think we need to keep in mind what the OP is asking. He's asking if he can get good quality footage from as small a crew as possible. It doesn't take an Einstein to know that everything will be easier and less stressful and better with a separate mixer and boom man, an addition of an AC position, a grip assigned exclusively to the DP, and the various suggestions people make. As the wise man said: Duh! Heck, why not have a full crew like on any hollywood studio production, think of the quality you'd get then!!!UNO!1! But err... did you notice that the OP is talking about a $30K-$50K production? Hello!!! Anybody home??!!! Hello!!!

Doing a feature on that kind of budget means compromise - period, end of story. Yes, Virginia, it means you are not going to be able to hire for every position George Lucas would. Time to wake up. Down here on earth, you will be stretched to the limit. It means the AC is a luxury you cannot afford. No, I'm not saying an AC wouldn't be marvelous to have. I'm saying a million dollars would also be marvelous to have. But on this kind of a budget, no you can't afford an AC. If your choice is between having an AC and no DP or the other way around, what would YOU choose, Sherlock? My stunningly strange choice is to have a DP and regretfully drop the AC.

But to each his/her own. I think good quality work can be done without an AC, without a separate mixer and boom op and so forth - it's not a question of what would be better in an ideal world. It's a question what is the bare minimum. On a $30K-$50K feature, the 9 positions I outlined, I consider the bare minimum for good quality product. It won't be Kubric level stuff, but it will be good stuff. Of course, this is assuming no huge special effects extravaganza with a million actors and locations, but I kinda figure that's not going to be the case on that kind of budget. Just my 2 cents.
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When you're budgetting as a producer, you're basically looking at how many pages a day you'll be shooting, which directly corresponds to setups/page. So the most efficient budget is the one that maximizes those two options while maintaining a particular quality level.

If you have a smaller (cheaper) crew, but you're doing less setups/pages a day, it can end up costing you more because the shoot goes longer.

Now, can you get by with a small crew AND stay fast? Of course, but that involves dropping quality, generally-speaking.

I'm currently budgetting a $20-30K film, and going through all these same decisions with a big huge spreadsheet. It's not easy.

Personally, I think there's very little different between a $25K film and a $50K film. The extra $25K buys you very little.

Look at it this way: a low budget Hollywood-style horror feature is ~$1.5 million (these are the ones you see on the Syfy channel), so if you spend $30K on your film, that's 2% of the budget. If you double your budget to $60K, congratulations, you're now at 4% of the budget.

To any audience, the difference between 2% and 4% as far as production value goes is zero, so you've just wasted $30K in my opinion.

If I had to shoot a horror film in the OP's budget range, without question, I'd shoot found footage-style (Paranormal Activity). It's the only horror style that can actually compete at that level with whatever Hollywood is doing.
 
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, BUT that extra $30K might buy you a recognizable actor. Does ti improve the quality of the film, maybe, maybe not, but what it does do is make it exponentially more marketable.
 
Hire department heads who come with gear. DP who owns a camera truck, Key Grip who has a G&E truck, etc. Hire a 2nd for each department head. They will scrounge the people they need for the rest. Pay for really good food. Not pizza or take-out. Hire a caterer who knows how to do a film shoot. Pay for insurance, unless you're under 18 and your Daddy's rich.
 
i think you need to take $2k to $5k and hire a producer to help you based on the script and your goals for the final production. If you are shooting the next big silent film, or working with puppets, you wont need sound.

Its hard to speculate your needs and there is no idea of the size, scope or genre of the story. If you dont know already what you can get done for $25-$30 I would suggest getting a producer to look out for you that does.
 
* Producer who is willing also to do 1st AD duties will be worth their weight in gold - you can probably hire a semi experienced 1st AD for this.
* DP and 1st AC (dp to operate and AC to pull focus).
* Sound Mixer can operate boom as well.

Thats 5 including yourself. If you can't get friends to grip/run/drive/cater for you for free - then you don't have friends.

This being said.. to operate this way requires lots of preparation. I would recommend for a crew this small having a crew who are all friends (even the paid ones). You want as much as possible to be able to do an entire rehearsal process for the crew (at least twice in two separate locations) so that you are used to working together and have got a good system of communication and comfort established therein before you get talent in front of the glass. Especially if unpaind friends who may have zero experience are going to be playing grip for a DP they have never met. You don't want to have any situations where you are distracted from your talent or your dp. You all need to be able to work together as seemlessly as possible on shooting days. This is best enabled by having a crew who have a basic idea about what they are doing (due to having reharsed it first), so that you don't need to be filing in for them any more than you need to.

You will be surpised by how helpful, willing and dependable close family and friends can be when it comes to simple grip tasks and getting a set in placeand broken down again.

I would only skimp on the producer/1stAD if you have mega prepared and rehearsed and you are 100% confident in your script breakdowns, shot lists, call sheets, and shooting schedules. You need to have all this printed out well in advance and go over each one the night before and the morning of every shoot day. To do this means you need to havescouted each location immaculately with your dp and sound mixer so they are 100% prepared for the location, are aware of all the logistics (light, acoustics, power etc), and you have organised them with your grips so that every necessary prop; c-stand; gel; flag; and cup of coffee is ready to go when it needs to be.

The smaller your crew the larger your preparation and organisation needs to be. The whole thing about a crew is they give you more and more room to be less organised. Who needs to do call lists, breakdowns, shot lsists, and schedules if you don't have a 1st AD or script supervisor? You do!!! If you don't have all of this organisation done that's when your shoot falls apart. If you don't know where you are supposed to be then how will anyone else? And if you haven't hired anyone to tell you where you are supposed to be who will? Its up to you!! This is daunting and crazy but if you live up to your needs and responsibilities then it will all turn out ok. If you don't... and you aren't on top of time management and organisation and don't have systems in place to keep your shoot in check... then you end up struggling with having to ge actors back to finish work and having to pay them for it... twice!!!

Be realistic about what you can do in what amount of time. Have a practice run with friends. How many pages can you shoot in a day? How much coverage are you going to want? How many angles? How many different deliveries for the same dialogue? How much freedom do you want to edit? How much can you afford?

Remember that this is something that you are going to have to sit down and spend months editing after you finish the shoot. Work for that edit. Set your shoot for that edit. Organise for that edit. But shoot for the camera haha.

Good luck!!!!!!
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
I have to say I shot a short with a $1500 Sennheiser wireless lav system (2 lavs, wireless, battery powered, 2 transducers, 2 receivers), absolutely mind blowing quality, better than a $300 Rode shotgun boompole mic i own. Those little lav mics were just incredible in the quality of recorded dialog audio. And I simply jacked the two receivers into a Zoom H4n 24-bit portable recorder and the resulting audio just seems to be of professional quality. With two such systems, heck a dancing monkey could possibly record four actors's dialog all without a boompole/mic! :)
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I think if you asked most people they would say that booming has a better chance of getting you quality audio vs wireless. I have stumbled across a few threads discussing this in the past. No offense to the zoom but without some mixer, I don't think you would get super film quality sound.
 
Laforce brought up a point that I wanted to mention, a scripty. Granted if you wrote the script and have it memorized and know every shot, maybe you could get by without one. But it is a great asset to have someone who only focuses on the script and helps you with continuity. A good scripty will make notes about which hand held what item in what scene, etc.

In response to another thread, I think an extra 25k can make a world of difference, such as actually having money for post.
 
Yeah for sure. Even if you just have a trusted friend/family/grip and have continuity log sheets ready for them and taught them the basics of how to use them. Especially these days with affordable technology, really anyone can get a decent image and quality of sound without too much screwing around. Which is great because it means you can focus your attention where it really needs to be. I really believe that only a tenth of good directing is "art" haha... the rest is good organisation and management.

Its highly unlikely that you are going to head into an edit and go "****!!! this scene is overexposed"... but you really dont want to start cutting in your OTS and go "****!!!! where's his hat"!!!
 
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