Miller Tripods “Smooth Start and Stop Technology”

[robotfist]

Does anyone here own a new Miller Cinx tripod head? I am confused about one of Miller’s stated features, the “smooth start and soft stop technology with balanced diagonal transitions.”

My friend’s O’Connor tripod head will let you change the resistance level on the fly while doing a quick pan, effectively slowing down your pan while coming to a stop. Does anyone know if that’s what Miller is referring to? Can you seamlessly switch the resistance on their new heads while in motion? I have an old Miller Compass25 and while it has been a workhorse, I cannot do that with it. The transitions to a higher resistance of drag kind of jump when they lock into place.

I’ve looked everywhere on the web for what this “ smooth start and soft stop technology with balanced diagonal transitions“ is supposed to be. I cannot find any description on Miller’s site either. Everyone just rehashes the Miller press release bullet points which do not describe what it is and what it does. Sounds like sales jargon to me.

 

[JPNola]

Does this help?:

Precision ball bearing supported pan-tilt movements help deliver silky smooth starts and soft stop fluid actions. Precise floating pan-tilt calliper locks ensure bounce free on-off locking.

Our current drag system employs multiple (6-10) clutch plates, coated in a high performance lubricant and captured in a module referred to as a clutch pack (schematic enclosed of clutch pack).

In our DS5, 10 and 20 heads we utilise one clutch pack in the pan and and one in the tilt body. This is the same technology we use in our larger format heads where we provide up to 4 clutch packs in the pan and in the tilt with the ability to select a combination of these clutch packs to vary the drag.

This drag system is entirely different and far more sophisticated than the 501 model you mentioned. Our heads also incorporate precision ball bearings on the pan and tilt shafts and all mating surfaces are precision machined.

https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/31161-will-real-fluid-head-technology-please-stand-up.html



"smooth start and soft stop" is obviously marketing, but what operation, if any, it is specifically referring to, I'm uncertain. To me it clearly is in counter to the argument that fluid heads have more smooth action. It's language selling that Miller's perform more like fluid heads than other non-fluid head makes.


edit: Given that Miller has been using "smooth start and soft stop" for at least 4 years now, we can reason that it isn't anything new to the "CiNX" line. Miller was using the language in their marketing for other tripod lines such as the "Arrow X".

 

[Peter C.]

What differentiates ok heads from excellent ones is the smoothness of a start/stop of a pan/tilt. Less expensive heads can do alright in the middle of a pan but don't ramp up or down like a true fluid heads. You'll notice the difference when filming live events with telephoto lenses that involves following action such as sports, dance, and wildlife.

edit: See Chris's post below for a better explanation.

 

[cyvideo]

I think what they are trying to emulate with this new Miller setup is their version of the Vinten's Clear Film technology. With Vinten's "Perfect Balance" combined with their "TF Drag Technology" you end up with a camera when setup correctly is virtually weightless as the camera will stay in any tilt position with virtually no resistance if you want to move it, and with absolutely no vertical drag applied.

With Vinten's "Thin Film" pan drag, you can end up with a non-linear drag coefficient at either end of a pan dependent on the speed applied to the start, middle and end of the pan. As you pan at a constant speed the drag remains linear. But as you slow down on the pan movement the drag no longer remains linear, it starts to increase and enables a very smooth landing endpoint. Or vice a versa. TF drag also allows you to 'whip pan' regardless of drag setting. As you whip it brakes away from the constant drag setting allowing the fast movement will very littler resistance but as you slow down the whip movement the drag coefficient now starts to return again back to your predetermined drag setting. Anyone who has worked with Vinten studio peds will be familiar with this TF drag system. No other tripod manufacture has anything close to this system. Sachtler, Manfrotto, Cartoni, Libec none of them. This TF drag system is part of nearly all Vinten higher end heads. I love it. Shooting football/soccer for example if you are the tight shot camera once the ball has been kicked way down the field you can whip with virtually no drag to follow the ball but as you find the ball receiver and slow down your whip pan the drag resistance returns giving you a really nice progressive slow down to the pan. Also the tilt/pan resistances are so well balanced that a 45-degree movement of the pan bar results in a very equal vertical/lateral 45-degree tilt/pan movement if say both tilt/pan adjustments are matched, say level 4.

Chris Young

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhdCein9j6I

 

[Run&Gun]

I think what they are trying to emulate with this new Miller setup is their version of the Vinten's Clear Film technology. With Vinten's "Perfect Balance" combined with their "TF Drag Technology" you end up with a camera when setup correctly is virtually weightless as the camera will stay in any tilt position with virtually no resistance if you want to move it, and with absolutely no vertical drag applied.

With Vinten's "Thin Film" pan drag, you can end up with a non-linear drag coefficient at either end of a pan dependent on the speed applied to the start, middle and end of the pan. As you pan at a constant speed the drag remains linear. But as you slow down on the pan movement the drag no longer remains linear, it starts to increase and enables a very smooth landing endpoint. Or vice a versa. TF drag also allows you to 'whip pan' regardless of drag setting. As you whip it brakes away from the constant drag setting allowing the fast movement will very littler resistance but as you slow down the whip movement the drag coefficient now starts to return again back to your predetermined drag setting. Anyone who has worked with Vinten studio peds will be familiar with this TF drag system. No other tripod manufacture has anything close to this system. Sachtler, Manfrotto, Cartoni, Libec none of them. This TF drag system is part of nearly all Vinten higher end heads. I love it. Shooting football/soccer for example if you are the tight shot camera once the ball has been kicked way down the field you can whip with virtually no drag to follow the ball but as you find the ball receiver and slow down your whip pan the drag resistance returns giving you a really nice progressive slow down to the pan. Also the tilt/pan resistances are so well balanced that a 45-degree movement of the pan bar results in a very equal vertical/lateral 45-degree tilt/pan movement if say both tilt/pan adjustments are matched, say level 4.

Chris Young

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhdCein9j6I

View attachment 139748

Vinten has been the only brand head I’ve owned since day one, back in the 90’s. I own five: 1x 10LF, 3x 100’s and 1x 250. There is a reason that pretty much every studio camera and OB/Sports camera is sitting on top of a Vinten head.

I actually kind of like that no one nowadays recognizes/appreciates Vinten heads in the “cine-centric” world we live in, now. It’s so undervalued on eBay, because everyone either wants a $5 Manfroto or it has to be O’Connor or Sachtler, that Vintens just fly under the radar as the red headed step-child. Last year I snagged a $9K 250 on a $6K mini ped that had lived in a studio their whole lives, for $3K TOTAL. And there were lots of 250’s by themselves, too, in the ~$3K+ Ballpark.

Just hope I never need to sale any of them, though... Lol

 

[puredrifting]

Vinten has been the only brand head I’ve owned since day one, back in the 90’s. I own five: 1x 10LF, 3x 100’s and 1x 250. There is a reason that pretty much every studio camera and OB/Sports camera is sitting on top of a Vinten head.

I actually kind of like that no one nowadays recognizes/appreciates Vinten heads in the “cine-centric” world we live in, now. It’s so undervalued on eBay, because everyone either wants a $5 Manfroto or it has to be O’Connor or Sachtler, that Vintens just fly under the radar as the red headed step-child. Last year I snagged a $9K 250 on a $6K mini ped that had lived in a studio their whole lives, for $3K TOTAL. And there were lots of 250’s by themselves, too, in the ~$3K+ Ballpark.

Just hope I never need to sale any of them, though... Lol

Good tip. I havent shot a Vinten head since the 90s. So the 250s are really good, huh? Under $3k is a deal if it's a great head. You're right, I am usually only excited by Sachtler and only certain models or the O'Connors.

 

[cyvideo]

Vinten has been the only brand head I’ve owned since day one, back in the 90’s. I actually kind of like that no one nowadays recognizes/appreciates Vinten heads in the “cine-centric” world we live in, now.
Just hope I never need to sale any of them, though... Lol

You the man Run&Gun! You know your sticks. For me the only way to go. Keep the secret to yourself though. Can't have every jack and jill shooter pushing up the prices.

Chris Young

 

[Run&Gun]

Good tip. I havent shot a Vinten head since the 90s. So the 250s are really good, huh? Under $3k is a deal if it's a great head. You're right, I am usually only excited by Sachtler and only certain models or the O'Connors.

The 250 is a great head, but it’s a beast. Not really for Run & Gun by yourself... Lol. It’s not completely unmanageable, but you wouldn’t want to go hiking with it unless you’re training to go into the army(13.5lbs). But for heavier loads and long lens, it’s awesome. I’ve shot twice with it on my Flowtech 100’s. Payload is almost 73 lbs. It has a dual 100/150mm ball and can also have a flat/Mitchell base installed. Something else that’s nice is the tilt-lock that’s separate from the pan and tilt brakes, so you’re not wearing out the tilt brake, when you just want to secure the head and prevent the camera/payload from tilting beyond horizontal, just like a lot of studio heads.

Sachtlers are smooth as hot butter, but I choose Vinten over them largely because of the perfect balance and infinite & continuously (on-the-fly) adjustable drag.

 

[Run&Gun]

You the man Run&Gun! You know your sticks. For me the only way to go. Keep the secret to yourself though. Can't have every jack and jill shooter pushing up the prices.

Chris Young

Lol. Yeah...

My background is broadcast, so I was exposed to Vinten’s early on and when it came time to buy my own gear, I went with what I liked. I’ve tried lots of others in the years since I started and outside of O‘cconor’s, nothing has made me want to switch, after using them.

I’m not sure how many times I’ve recommended on here for people to go on eBay when looking for a good head and look at the 100’s instead of buying some new junky Manfrotto or the like

 

[CharlesPapert]

I would imagine given the weight of most camera setups now that most would do better with an O'Connor 50 vs the 100, especially since those models lack counterbalance adjustment. I have a 50 in my garage that comes out on the very rare occasion but it still performs as smoothly as it did when it was made 40+ years ago, they are astonishing. I spent a few years on staff in the late 80's shooting daily on a 50:

 

[Run&Gun]

I would imagine given the weight of most camera setups now that most would do better with an O'Connor 50 vs the 100, especially since those models lack counterbalance adjustment. I have a 50 in my garage that comes out on the very rare occasion but it still performs as smoothly as it did when it was made 40+ years ago, they are astonishing. I spent a few years on staff in the late 80's shooting daily on a 50: View attachment 139754

Apologies, Charles. I was actually referring to a Vinten 100. I made that about as clear as mud, didn't I?

But one of the first people I worked for after I started freelancing in the 90's had, I think, at least two O'connor heads with one on a set of old O'connor woodies. They were his travel and run around legs before carbon fiber was everywhere and affordable. I think after they broke(the legs. I don't think you can kill an old O'connor head), he started migrating over to all Sachtler heads and CF legs. Up to that point, I think the only time I had seen a wooden tripod was in a movie. At least professionally speaking.

Side nots: I think I only saw a professional Sharp camera one time in person. It was at a production house around here in the mid-90's.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Oh duh, that was my bad. I had the old O'Connors in my mind, someone on another board was recommending the 50 and 100. I've had so little exposure to the Vintens, having done almost no ped work. It did seem like when they all got absorbed together by Vitec Group some of the Vinten design started to slide over into the O'Connor redesigns.

My boss at that company liked Sharp for some reason! When I started in '88 we had an old Saticon model and then we moved up to the newer Plumbicon one. At the time I was pretty excited because the new camera was so cool and streamlined in comparison--hilariously, looking at these pictures I'm not sure which one this is! Between that and my clunky-ass first Steadicam, it's just a jank-fest.

 

[Guest]

Shoe game in that last pic is on-point all around though.

 

[CharlesPapert]

Shoe game in that last pic is on-point all around though.

I'll take it, but it was a practical choice. I lived by the New Balance outlet store in Boston for years, easy pickings for deals. Took this around the same time.

 

[cyvideo]

Something else that’s nice is the tilt-lock that’s separate from the pan and tilt brakes, so you’re not wearing out the tilt brake, when you just want to secure the head and prevent the camera/payload from tilting beyond horizontal, just like a lot of studio heads.

Essential when building up your rig on an OB. Tilt lock caught me out the first time I used one. Once you have assembled OB box lens rigs you understand why it's there. As you say the 250 is more suited to Drag-n-grunt than run and gun. Not to forget though that for the 100 series there are 10 different tension springs available, silver thru yellow, that will accommodate anything from a fully laden 2/3" with top finder and demands down to a Z90.

Chris Young

 

[Guest]

I'll take it, but it was a practical choice. I lived by the New Balance outlet store in Boston for years, easy pickings for deals. Took this around the same time.
View attachment 139760

I've always liked New Balance. The fact that you got them because they just happened to be nearby is even more fitting to why I like the shoes. They have a timeless look, but are ultimately about function, so that is cool. But what is cooler than the kid's velcro shoes? Much underrated, but I guess nothing quite replaces laces.

Even though I am still kind of new to O'Connor, I also like the grey they used to have. Perhaps part of the same aesthetic that I like the New Balance brand for. Black is cool, but SoCal dust settles on it too quickly. I like how they all for adding an AKS box. Something OMB doesn't really require, but is nice in film making.

RnG and Chris are making me want to pick up a Vinten though. Seems a sleeker setup than an O'Connor 1030. Infinite variability is what makes Oconnor worth shlepping over a Sachtler or Miller typically (well, that and used to be supported and easily repaired, though Vitec changed all that) but the Vinten is appealing with infinite variability and seemingly lighter weight to payload capacity ratio?

Miller's new Cine series looks interesting, but I am not liking the click" counter weight. As nice as Miller Arrow and Sachtler heads have been, I've never been happy with the predefined counter balance settings, and the need to use drag to take out the bounce or slag. But my issues with them are overrated, and they are smooth and get amazing results at the end of the day.

But have to say, as much as I have liked Vinten all these years, I've managed to overlook them for every purchase I have made. Thanks to RnG and Cy, I can now say it is one of my bigger regrets in life. haha.

 

[Run&Gun]

Oh duh, that was my bad. I had the old O'Connors in my mind, someone on another board was recommending the 50 and 100. I've had so little exposure to the Vintens, having done almost no ped work. It did seem like when they all got absorbed together by Vitec Group some of the Vinten design started to slide over into the O'Connor redesigns.

My boss at that company liked Sharp for some reason! When I started in '88 we had an old Saticon model and then we moved up to the newer Plumbicon one. At the time I was pretty excited because the new camera was so cool and streamlined in comparison--hilariously, looking at these pictures I'm not sure which one this is! Between that and my clunky-ass first Steadicam, it's just a jank-fest.

View attachment 139756

Lol. You don’t hear too many people nowadays throw out ‘Janky’ or a version of it. I love it. It seems like it’s more of an east coast thing(and I always felt it was kind of southern, too). But you’re originally from the East Coast, right?

It’s amazing when you look back on technology from years ago. We just kind of forget about how it really was. “Oh how soon we forget...”. The first Steadicam I laid my hands on was a buddy’s in the late 90’s. I can’t remember the model, but it was the sorta ”sleek” grey sled with the green monochrome CRT. It’s kind of funny that today’s rigs look almost piece-milled, because they are so modular and customizable. And they’re just absolute, outright beasts when you compare them to what Garret shot Bound for Glory and Rocky on.

 

[Run&Gun]

I've always liked New Balance. The fact that you got them because they just happened to be nearby is even more fitting to why I like the shoes. They have a timeless look, but are ultimately about function, so that is cool. But what is cooler than the kid's velcro shoes? Much underrated, but I guess nothing quite replaces laces.

Even though I am still kind of new to O'Connor, I also like the grey they used to have. Perhaps part of the same aesthetic that I like the New Balance brand for. Black is cool, but SoCal dust settles on it too quickly. I like how they all for adding an AKS box. Something OMB doesn't really require, but is nice in film making.

RnG and Chris are making me want to pick up a Vinten though. Seems a sleeker setup than an O'Connor 1030. Infinite variability is what makes Oconnor worth shlepping over a Sachtler or Miller typically (well, that and used to be supported and easily repaired, though Vitec changed all that) but the Vinten is appealing with infinite variability and seemingly lighter weight to payload capacity ratio?

Miller's new Cine series looks interesting, but I am not liking the click" counter weight. As nice as Miller Arrow and Sachtler heads have been, I've never been happy with the predefined counter balance settings, and the need to use drag to take out the bounce or slag. But my issues with them are overrated, and they are smooth and get amazing results at the end of the day.

But have to say, as much as I have liked Vinten all these years, I've managed to overlook them for every purchase I have made. Thanks to RnG and Cy, I can now say it is one of my bigger regrets in life. haha.

Tripod heads are a very personal thing. It’s all in what kind of feel and control the operator wants. Luckily Vinten’s and O’Connor’s operate the same way and are both smooth and controllable. They have just always kind of been aimed at different markets, with Vinten being a born in the UK and it’s historically been aimed at the broadcast market and O’Connor, of course, being founded in the US and aimed largely at the cine side, which is evident by some of their design elements and options. I’d actually like to have some of the mounting points that O’Connor has, on my Vintens, like the assistant box mounts. Not for a box, but so I could rig up a monitor without putting it on the camera, which of course makes for more weight that the head has to take and counterbalance on the tilt axis when it’s attached to the camera.

 

[Run&Gun]

Essential when building up your rig on an OB. Tilt lock caught me out the first time I used one. Once you have assembled OB box lens rigs you understand why it's there. As you say the 250 is more suited to Drag-n-grunt than run and gun. Not to forget though that for the 100 series there are 10 different tension springs available, silver thru yellow, that will accommodate anything from a fully laden 2/3" with top finder and demands down to a Z90.

Chris Young

I actually got caught with the tilt-lock on a 250 one day on a live show. Walked over to the cam they had me one and flipped off the pan and tilt brakes, and the tilt brake knob was screwed-up and just spun(truck gear, so as you can imagine, it had seen some wear and tear), then when I went to move the head around and see how the drag was set and how it was balanced out/felt, I couldn’t tilt. My brain immediately went to “the tilt brake is F’d”. I called someone over and told them I thought the head was screwed up. They just quickly reached in and flipped the tilt-lock off and all was good. I felt like a big dumb-@$$ for about five minutes.

 

[robotfist]

Yeah, I remember using Vintens alot on the big 3/4" broadcast cameras at my school in the late 90's. Looking at their website specs, I'm seeing that the Vintens often have minimum payloads of around 15 pounds. They're definitely designed for ENG systems (not that you can't use them for cinema). They just might be a tad less flexible witht their weight range on the low end? I tend to jump around from mirrorless to C300 to Amira/Mini a lot. The Oconnor 1040 or 1030 have minimum payloads of 0. The Millers and Sachtlers go down to about 0-4lbs.