Microphone/Field Recorder Speaks; This guy doesn't mess around.

Barmack

Barmack

Member
Hi,
I see a lot of budget questions. Like what's the best bang for buck.
I'm asking a different question.
What gives the best bang? And why should we choose it. Does it make life easier?

Field Recorders
Mixers/Preamp
Microphones

What do you guys recommend.
I hear a lot of things about sound devices.
Really try to answer.
Reason I'm asking is I just spent some money on a Tascam DR 70D and I regret it. I'm willing to spend another 2k just to have something of substance not a cheap gimmick.

-Barmack
 
Barmack said:
I just spent some money on a Tascam DR 70D and I regret it. I'm willing to spend another 2k just to have something of substance not a cheap gimmick.
Click to expand...

So what don't you like about the Tascam DR-70D ?

Sure it's nothing like a Sound Devices / Zaxcom / Nagra recorder, but then you are paying less than 5 percent of the cost of these units.
 
You make a strong distinction between "bang for the buck", and want specifically just "bang" - which to me means you are looking for the best regardless of cost. Be forewarned, that you can spend a pretty unbelievable amount of money on this gear - real pros have literally tens of thousands invested in your category of "Field Recorders, Mixers/Preamps, Microphones". There are mics alone, that cost over $10K. But there is no real way to answer your question, unless you explain your use scenarios - for certain kinds of scenarios you won't need fancy features you'll never use, and that will affect which gear you'll want; obviously if you are going to shoot something with several sound people and a ton of actors, you'll need gear that can handle that. Meanwhile, if you are just an indie who wants to do run'n'gun, or a small feature where you can only spare one or two sound pros on your production, you will need different gear. And so on.

So, explain what you want done, and you'll get recommendations, no problem.
 
Is this to use "on set"?
What kind of shooting do you do? Corporate, interviews, narrative?
What will be the general use of the recorder? Sampling, just with a camera, field recording?
Do you do multi-camera shoots?
What actual camera(s) do you have in your posession? Brand and model # please.
How many phantom powered mics do you use at one time, what would be the max?
How many wireless mics will you be using? Will you be using them in combo with boom and ambient mics?
Do you need timecode?
What kind of spaces do you record in? Conference halls, churches, if so what size and what are the acoustics like. Do you record outside? Is rain an issue?
What is your budget?

In the mean time look at the relatively new Zoom unit that came out to compete against the Sound Devices unit, look at the Sound Devices 633. I have it and it is great but the price differential is huge from the D70 and you need to buy expensive custom cables to use the line inputs and some other connectors. Look at used Sound Devices units as well. Check the location sound forum for those or go to Trew Audio or Pro-Sound or Gotham or Location Sound.

I should mention that when the D70 came out the buzz on the location sound forum was pretty positive about it given what it was. They also did not brush off the Zoom recorder/mixer.

Zaxcom for occassional use (in other words, if you aren't using it several times a week) would be troublesome as their menus are cryptic and the settings within are not all self-evident to the occassional user. There are videos avaialble on setting up a Zaxcom mixer that will tell the story. The Zaxcom mixer/recorder is also designed to be used with Zaxcom wireless. The whole ecosystem gets expensive fast.

Check the archives here. A lot has been split on your questions. A lot. Also other forums as well, as mentioned above. Google will supply you with tons of info on your topics of mixers, mics and recorders.
 
All good questions and comments above.

If your issue is the preamps on the Tascam 70D, you could consider putting a small mixer in front of the 70D and running line-level outputs from the mixer and into the recorder.

To jump up to a mixer/recorder from Sound Devices or Zaxcom (another solid brand), you're talking US$3000+. A SD 633 or Zaxcom MAXX would be really useful (I've used both, about to buy one), but not cheap.

But if you bought, say, a used Sound Devices 302 mixer (which are fairly inexpensive these days; $700ish...but seems to vary a lot)) or perhaps a new or used Sound Devices MixPre-D (not the original MixPre without the -D... $930 new, $700ish used), you would have great preamps, great limiters, great metering, and great other features. Seriously. I have several Sound Devices products, including a MixPre and 302...both for 15+ years. Those both have two outputs. If you need more channels, maybe look for a used Sound Devices 442...Great mixer, kinda heavy for bag use, four direct outs, available used for $1000 or less.... the small SD mixers are still great.

But this assumes that your main issue with the Tascam recorder is the quality of the preamps (and perhaps limiters). So what is your issue with the Tascam 70D?
 
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I had similar questions many moons ago and ended up getting an SD302 and a zaxcom ZFR100 recorder (basically looks like zax's now old generation of wireless without the wireless) which records to a minisd card. So I'd take the feed from the 302 into that and it sounds great. Now, just recently I forked over for a Zaxcom Maxx, and was comparing to the SD633. Now in my research since buying both wasn't an option, I rented them with the SD being much more widely available, I found that the pres in the Zaxcom had lower noise floors and seemed cleaner, TO MY EARS. But now the SD633 is awesome in all regards too, but I'd say for MY use its more optimized for voice recording. I wanted to be able to record the widest dynamic range of nature, classical music (at events), and with neverclip just gives extra margin of safety (and I'm not saying you cannot get an awesome quality recording of nature and classical with SD, because you can). Now the SD is a more refined unit in its powering, two chip redundancy, more input tracks through ta3, wider availability, simpler user interface. While the Zax, to me at least, has more recording venue versatility with extra full pre-amp (you can run two stereo mic sets without any extra pres). Also has a built in digital transmitter to transmit to a camera if needed (of course the zax receivers start at about $1700). So what really sets Zax and SD apart is that Zax is an all in one company, meaning they can be a single source for all your recording and wireless needs allowing for full integration and remote control of remote transmitters etc using their Zaxnet technology. Zaxnet really is there super extra special sauce since you can adjust gain on transmitters (yes while the talent is 100's of feet away from you), record start/stop, low power modes, all from your mixing bag. I will say the SD stuff "looks" more rugged being black crinkle coated, big knobs, etc, but holding the maxx in my hand, its solid metal, the knobs and buttons are very solid. Though I will say the SD is a little better sealed because the card slots and such are covered (part of the refinement of SD over Zaxcom industrial design). And final comment is the Zax uses virtual faders and such and just about every control can be assigned to do other things, which can be good and bad. Some folks prefer individual pots for all channels, but zax has clever ways to deal with that, it just comes down to your preference. To me it was worth the investment, since audio equipment has a MUCH MUCH MUCH longer useful life than cameras. Oh, I also considered the Zoom F8 and have to say it cannot be touched for awesomeness in that price range.
 
Barmack said:
Hi,
I see a lot of budget questions. Like what's the best bang for buck.
I'm asking a different question.
What gives the best bang? And why should we choose it. Does it make life easier?

Field Recorders
Mixers/Preamp
Microphones

What do you guys recommend.
I hear a lot of things about sound devices.
Really try to answer.
Reason I'm asking is I just spent some money on a Tascam DR 70D and I regret it. I'm willing to spend another 2k just to have something of substance not a cheap gimmick.

-Barmack
Click to expand...

Field Recorders

Aaton Cantar (about £15,000)
Nagra VI (about £7,000)
AETA 4MinX (about £4,000)
Sonosax (if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it)

I would say these are the best and are about equal in audio sound quality. Sound Devices are a litte down from these, but still excellent quality.


Mixers / Preamp

Not needed if you use any of the above


Microphones

Sennheiser MKH series are the best for any outdoor work - any MKH 20/30/40 series or MKH 8000 series

Schoeps Super CMiT is also a good gun mic. and any of their mics is excellent (though not so good in the damp compared to the Sennheiser RF condensers)

Neumann, DPA and Microtech Gefell are also of equal quality with the above.

Also the Soundfield mic. is often used when the need arises.

They are actually good "bang for the buck" as the quality is top notch and you will probably never have to replace them.

Personally I have both the Nagra VI and the AETA 4MinX, about 14 Sennheiser MKH series microphones, several Neumann and several Gefell mics as well as several other mic. manufacturers.
 
@Barmack has never returned to clarify his question. Either his application(s), his disappointment with the Tascam gadget, or what/how/where he is recording or his budget. His question doesn't seem to indicate that he has unlimited budget.
 
Barmack said:
Reason I'm asking is I just spent some money on a Tascam DR 70D and I regret it. I'm willing to spend another 2k just to have something of substance not a cheap gimmick.
Click to expand...

$2K is nothing at all, it will get you nowhere when it comes to getting a true pro set up. Thus as you can't afford that, of course you have to consider what items give you max bang for buck so that you can spend your extremely limited budget wisely.

Tascam DR70D / DR60D mk2 are best bang for buck there are by far on the market, and unless the rest of your audio set up is up to scratch as well I don't see the point in upgrading.

But if you are to upgrade from a DR70D, I see three key paths to take:
a) get a secondhand Sound Devices 302 to put in front of your DR70D in the bag
b) get a Zoom F8 instead (massively cheaper than its "competition", so gives you tremendous bang for buck, however is still a big leap up in cost from a DR70D, but still is far far from the best of the best!)
c) get a Sound Devices mixer/recorder instead, but your $2K total budget comes nowhere close to buying even their cheapest one... (a 633)
 
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416 or MHK60
MKH50 or Schoepps
Set of Lectros
Sound Devices 664

Everything is relatively inexpensive except the lectros. However, you can definitely put a good kid together for under $20k.

I think the Tascam sounds really bad compared with sound devices pre-amps, but still better than a Zoom, which is basically unusable. If you have a $2k budget just for the recorder look at some permutation of a sound devices mixer and recorder. Just make sure you get sound devices (or Zaxcom) pre-amps.
 
A lot comes down to 'Return on Investment'... What are you trying to do with the gear, earn a living from it, or use it as a hobby?
If you intend to use it to earn your income think more about what or where the $$$ are coming from, what does your client 'need' not just 'want' and are they prepared to hire you at a reasonable rate or are you just financing the dreams of someone else?
 
And that is only 10X his budget...

Policar said:
416 or MHK60
MKH50 or Schoepps
Set of Lectros
Sound Devices 664

Everything is relatively inexpensive except the lectros. However, you can definitely put a good kid together for under $20k.

I think the Tascam sounds really bad compared with sound devices pre-amps, but still better than a Zoom, which is basically unusable. If you have a $2k budget just for the recorder look at some permutation of a sound devices mixer and recorder. Just make sure you get sound devices (or Zaxcom) pre-amps.
Click to expand...
 
You would have to go a bit into why you don't like the DR70 for people to give meaningful alternatives.

The mic pres should be decent and other than the weirdness with some DSLR's and the camera out I haven't heard a lot of negatives.

My solution is a MixPre as a front end. I have used that with quite a few recorders over the years. The advantage is you get really good mic pres and really good limters and basically by pass the area where many low cost recorders are weak.

How many inputs do you need? I'm at two but if you need more then there are a number of Tascam recorders and the Zoom 8 track that looks like the first recorder that they have made for serious users.

I personally have not been very excited about Sound Devices recorders. They have sounded fine, though I know a few people who actually don't like their sound so? But the menus and setting them up has always been frustratingly complicated. I have had to wade through them on a few occasions to help friends out who where having a hard time getting something set a certain way. It is something you are not going to probably deal with very often but when you do ...

And of course they are fairly pricey. The asterisk on that last one is that I don't do a lot of production recording where having a tank of a recorder is more important. If my bread and butter was shooting production A SD recorder would not be expensive compared to other similar "tanks". But doing FX recording I have options.
 
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