Mic upgrade: AKG CK69 VS Sony ECM 678

S

SPZ

Veteran
Hi, everyone.

While this might seem like a no brainer, the fact is there are people not happy with the AKG. To someone that can read French, they absolutelly trash this model on this forum:

http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cach...0542+AKG+ck69+impressions&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10

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Here's a transcript of the post:

"(...) Ne commets pas l'erreur d'acheter un AKG CK69; tu le regretterais à coup sûr !
Pour avoir pu tester ce micro et le comparer à ses concurrents, je peux te dire que c'est vraiment un très mauvais micro, il est mauvais dans à peu près tous les domaines :
- directivité beaucoup trop large à certaines fréquences le rendant totalement inefficace dans le bruit ;
- très forte sensibilité au vent et au bruits de perche ;
- son très coloré, type "loudness" et effet de proximité colossal ;
- bruit de fond (souffle) très audible, peu utilisable sur des sons faibles -

J'apprécie généralement les réalisations AKG, mais là ils se sont bien plantés, ce micro est un vraie m.... !

Le mkh 60 st lui très efficace, surtout si on enclenche les filtres (sans eux, le son est un peu fade) .
Mais pour moins cher que ton mkh 60 d'qccasion, tu peux acquérir l'excellent Neumann km 185 (hyper-cardio), micro hyper polyvalent, léger, compact et qui sonne très bien .
Audio-Technica fait également d'excellents micros-canon à prix très raisonnable . "

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I was quite convinced on how superior the AKG was, but this clearly put doubts in my head!

Anyone with experience on this Sony on a Film production, as well as the AKG?

I have an audio technica 4073a, by the way, and a crappy Azden. The Azden is terrible, and the audio technica is fair, but too bassy.

Any recommendations?

Did the search already, by the way, and saw some enthusiastic responses on the CK69. Nothing, however, on the Sony...

One more curiosity: The AKG says it captures audio on a range of 20-18 000 HZS, and the Sony says it captures up to 40 000hzs!

My limited audio knowledge tells me more frequency, better sound. (at least in Post-production).

Can someone explain me this?

For reference, The price of the AKG (with 480b) is aprox USD 1000, and the Sony is USD 620.

Do you get what you pay for, or is the AKG brand name the increased price factor?

Other suggestions are welcome.
 
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With much research and help from fellow members in this forum, I short listed the shotguns I'm looking into purchasing:

The Neumann 81i
Schoeps Cmit5u
Sanken Cs3e
AKG CK 69
Sennheizer MKH60

Question to the experts: which one has the longest reach for acceptable sound?

I've read the excelent thread from Dan "Puredrifting"and listened to his samples, and this aspect - How do the mics cope with long distance recording- is very important to my decision.

Anyone can point out these?

EDIT- as for the Hzs reference on the Sony Mic, its inside the specifications sheet inside the box. However, B&H states a frequence range from 40 to 20 000Hzs. Hmm... Either I saw it wrong, or something is really off here...
 
SPZ said:
Question to the experts: which one has the longest reach for acceptable sound?
Click to expand...

None. Microphone don't have "reach." They don't act like a telephoto lens and pick up sound from long distance. The mic listed have varying degree of off axis rejection, but you're still going to have to get them close to the sound source to get good result.
 
Huy Vu said:
None. Microphone don't have "reach." They don't act like a telephoto lens and pick up sound from long distance. The mic listed have varying degree of off axis rejection, but you're still going to have to get them close to the sound source to get good result.
Click to expand...

"None"? From what I read on the test by Puredrifting, the Audio technica 4073a is the more sensible one, better for sources that are longer away.

But I already have that mic.

What I need to know is which one is better in this aspect from the ones I Shortlisted.
 
SPZ said:
"None"? From what I read on the test by Puredrifting, the Audio technica 4073a is the more sensible one, better for sources that are longer away.

But I already have that mic.

What I need to know is which one is better in this aspect from the ones I Shortlisted.
Click to expand...

Any audio pro would tell you that you have to get the mic as close as you can to the subject or else it'll sound like crap. Buying an expensive microphone and then standing farther away hoping that it'll pick up better is just asking for trouble.
 
The Sanken and the Schoeps are both used by the audio pros here on dvxuser, Matt had a nice comparison in another thread and favored the Sanken in the end...

Personaly i went with the Sennheiser 416 as the shotgun and an MBHO as the hyper for indoors (recomended by Oleg)...

BTW maybe check Barry´s new DVD on location audio recording...
Hope that helped!
 
Thanks guys! Yes, the Sanken is in my top 3 at the moment-

Neumann
Schoeps
Sanken

Why?

Dan's files. The Neumann sounded the best to me. The exterior isolation is simply fantastic, and the interior test almost had no reverbation. The Sanken showed a lot more reverbation on the interiors, but sounded stronger- maybe a sign it captures a stronger signal?

As for the Schoeps, the Highs enhancer really made a difference, and while not as reverbation free as the Neumann in the interior's test, it is close. In the exterior test it really showed better sound isolation than the Sanken. It can't be fair to compare the Neumann and the other 2 in this test because it seems like its a different place- no crickets, for example.
 
Neumann 81i and the Shoeps CMIT5U has the longest reach out of the three. You boom it 6 feet, 8 feet, 10 feet, or even 12 feet, you still get great results. Keep in mind that your background sound needs to be quiet. If you're shooting near a train station, you know you've got to find another place. The Sanken CS3e still performs well under harsh conditions, but has less reach when you're doing Ultra-Wide shots. Both the 81i and the CMIT5U sounds very good when it's in the 3-4 feet area, just like a hypercardioid in the 12"-2' area.
 
It is a no brainer -like you said SPZ- the fact that someone on a forum does not like AKG69. There are also people on that forum that do not like Sennheiser or Schoeps.
The AKG ULS 69 is a quality mic to use in two ways and if you like the modular concept it is great.
 
Alan H. Chang said:
Neumann 81i and the Shoeps CMIT5U has the longest reach out of the three. You boom it 6 feet, 8 feet, 10 feet, or even 12 feet, you still get great results. Keep in mind that your background sound needs to be quiet. If you're shooting near a train station, you know you've got to find another place. The Sanken CS3e still performs well under harsh conditions, but has less reach when you're doing Ultra-Wide shots. Both the 81i and the CMIT5U sounds very good when it's in the 3-4 feet area, just like a hypercardioid in the 12"-2' area.
Click to expand...
longest reach , what is it exactly ?:-)
 
Alan, thanks for the input. This was very good info.

Xray, you're killing me! I could very well get the CK69 right now if I wanted. However, no testing policy (only warranty) on the local distributor, coped with the very worrying French opinion (just babelfish the posted opinion if you don't understand French) makes me hesitate on this mic...

I've privately talked with Matt and he did concede the Sanken would be a tiny bit better than the CK69 as a shotgun...then again, the option to add an hypercardioid (ck63) is a very tempting option- But, realy, THERE'S NO WAY i can test its performance, or hear its performance!

Its a shame AKG didn't give Dan a test mic for him to put on the comparison. For someone that doesn't have the chance to test his gear, and is about to fork out 1k to 2k in a piece of audio gear, Its important to at least be assured one isn't getting something that they would regret...

I don't want to even think on investing in a new Shotgun (after this one) for at least 10 years! :)

UPDATE-Seems like I'm closer to the Sanken and Neumann than the Schoeps, due to local representation of the brands... Still awaiting for some e-mail returns...
 
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What I meant was "reach" is defined by the amount of attenuation of off-axis response from the 90-270 degree polar axis. The more attenuation within these given variables, the more the lobe and pickup angle will be narrower at the 0 degree. Thus, giving you more distance to work with under a controlled environment. In most cases, the environment aren't controlled and must be compensated by moving the microphone closer to the sound source. This also has to do with the length of the diaphragm in co-relation to the type of wave it picks up.

*In addition, most people consider "reach" as intelligibility of the sound source. Dialogue needs to be clear so the "reach" must include more narrow pattern in the high-frequencies than low frequencies. Instrument mic'ing needs directional microphones to pickup only that specific instrument without picking up nearby instruments.
 
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Exactly. Didn't know how to explain it technicaly, but that was exactly what I was looking for when I asked the question.

Thanks again, Alan!
 
The good news is a quality condenser shotgun will probably outlast you if you treat it right.

The bad news is reach does not exist for mics(*); neither is there any significant variance in how well different shotguns handle audio at long distances. Whatever the SPL of your intended signal is at the mic is what you get. How much side rejection, for your BG noise, a mic has differs but that will not help (much) if your primary signal is already weak. Turning up the gain to boost the signal will turn up the noise too. Even long guns (with quiet signal chain) will top out on the average human voice in a quiet environment at around 4 feet (add a foot for the distance of head of the tube to the mic); if you are trying to get acceptable s/n ratio. 6 to 12 feet will not work even under the most ideal of circumstances.

*Parabolic mics actually focus the sound waves gathered in it's dish giving the mic "reach" but sound very unnatural.

Basically, the +$1000 shotguns are all of good quality with slightly different characteristics that come down more to user preference then ability to be an all-in-one solution.

Cheers

edit-correcting some late night bad math
 
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SPZ said:
Xray, you're killing me! I could very well get the CK69 right now if I wanted. However, no testing policy (only warranty) on the local distributor, coped with the very worrying French opinion (just babelfish the posted opinion if you don't understand French) makes me hesitate on this mic...
Click to expand...

Oepss, I know it's a hard choice! I do have the AKG CK69 combo with ck63 and I like the flexibility. You can put the tiny ck63 in your pocket and for quick change (indoors /car) it's always there. btw: I mostly use the CK69 short.
 
Ok, final decision made... After much consideration, and for my kind of situations, I decided to go for...

The Neumann KMR81i.

It was a very hard decision. Big bucks on the line, and I wanted the absolute best for my production. Picture wise, I'm never going to get the raw HPX3000 image quality, or Sony f35 in this project (We do not have these for rental over here- not even an F900!). But I can sure get the best possible audio.

Next I will probably buy a separate hypercardioid for interiors.

My first choice was the Schoeps Cmit 5u. It was the one that, through Dan's tests, sounded the most natural, and the high frequence enhancement feature felt fantastic.

However, I cannot fork out 2k for a piece of gear without any sort of local support. Schoeps, unfortunately, doesn't have a local distributor.

The Sanken sounded fantastic on the exterior testing, but I just wasn't happy with the reverbation it captured in the interiors. I want the purest, unchanged signal possible to have more space to work on in post... Strange, since this is not the approachI have on the image side of the equation.

Anyway, thank you all for the feedback, and special kudos to Matt, Dan and Barry for the long PM exchanges.

EDIT, and of course Alan, Wabbit, Xray and the others for the technical input and education on the technical aspects of sound.

I love this community!

A quick, last question:

Any suggestions for a good On camera mounting solution for this mic, and a boom pole clamp/attachment that is the most noiseless possible?

EDIT: The camera will be an HVX200.

Thanks again!
 
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Hey SPZ,

Im having a hard time choosing between the Neumann KMR81i and the Sanken CS3e, but im leaning towards the Neumann KMR81i. How have you found the mic? Does is meet expectations?
 
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