FS5: Merits of Filming a wedding in 60p, shutter speed of 1/60 ?

[Budgieboots]

Hello,

I normally film weddings in 30p, with a shutter of 1/60.

However, for my next one, I was thinking about filming the entire thing in 60p, but still editing in a 30p timeline, just so I have the option to do some mild slow-motion where appropriate.

Given that a lot of indoor venues are quite dark -- I was thinking about forgoing the rule of the shutter speed being double the framerate, so instead of filming at 1/120 in 60p, I was thinking of keeping it at 1/60 to give myself a little bit more light.

Will this totally weird up the image if I am going back to 30 from 60?

 

[Cary Knoop]

For higher frame rates the shutter angle becomes less of a factor.

I suggest you make some test shots to see if you like the flow of the images.

 

[chappelldigital]

When you slow down the 60fps footage (that was shot at 1/60), it'll look blurry (almost choppy). It won't be smooth slow motion.
Can't see that being a desired look for any wedding personally...

 

[Doug Jensen]

When you slow down the 60fps footage (that was shot at 1/60), it'll look blurry (almost choppy). It won't be smooth slow motion.
Can't see that being a desired look for any wedding personally...

I disagree. The OP's plan that he has put forth is perfectly sound. I shot all of the footage in this video at 60P with a 1/60 shutter -- but edited on a 30P timeline. Some of the footage I slowed down to 1/2 speed slow-motion and some of it I just let Premiere dump half the frames to bring it to 30 fps. But no matter which way the footage was processed in post it still looks fine and allowed maximum flexibilty.

 

[jasonbrooks]

I disagree. The OP's plan that he has put forth is perfectly sound. I shot all of the footage in this video at 60P with a 1/60 shutter -- but edited on a 30P timeline. Some of the footage I slowed down to 1/2 speed slow-motion and some of it I just let Premiere dump half the frames to bring it to 30 fps. But no matter which way the footage was processed in post it still looks fine and allowed maximum flexibilty.

I'm with Doug 100% on this, the OPs plan is a good one. When shooting OBS DOC stuff in available (read low) light, I'm equally comfortable opening the shutter up to 270 or even sometimes 300 degrees (edit for clarity: even when shooting at 25, 24, or 30fps). If the subject is anything but super-dynamic, the camera is on legs (or even a steady shoulder shot), I'd challenge anyone to spot the difference. The only time I'm very wary of deviating from the 180 'rule', is with handheld follow shots or similar, in which I find the increased motion-blur a potential show-stopper.

As Cary says though, the only real way to be sure what will work best for you is to shoot a handful of test shots at various shutter speeds and compare! ;-)

Best of luck,

jason

 

[Run&Gun]

When I shoot 60P for broadcast, 99.9% of the time it's 1/60 shutter(off).

Why aren't you shooting 24P(23.98)? To me 30P has always seemed to have a weird cadence and look. When I'm shooting "real time" video, it's either 23.98P or 59.94P. I've only shot 30P one time, in almost twenty years, and it was only because it was the clients specs.

 

[Run&Gun]

Beautiful stuff, Doug. Proof that 60 frame "video" can look great. Almost a unicorn since EVERYTHING seems to be 24P nowadays.

 

[firehawk]

Yeah I shoot 60p at 1/60 a lot at wedding receptions and sometimes the ceremony as well. Works great on a 30p timeline and allows for smooth slow motion on the parts I want to

 

[Doug Jensen]

Beautiful stuff, Doug. Proof that 60 frame "video" can look great. Almost a unicorn since EVERYTHING seems to be 24P nowadays.

Thanks for the compliment but 30P is not rare in the circles I work in. I shoot a lot more 30P than 24P and I'm gradually making the transition to 60P more and more for stock footage and other things that I want to be future-proofed. I was speaking with Douglas Trumbull a couple of weeks ago and he seems pretty certain, and I agree, that 24P is on its way out even for cinema and that 60P will become the norm. The "24P look" that everyone associates with high-end cinema may go the way of film itself sooner than you think. Furthermore, broadcast TV in the USA is built around 30P/60i already and it's easier to throw away unneeded frames (when going from 30P to 24P) than it is to generate frames in post (when going from 24P to 30P) that were never captured in camera. I'd never advise anyone not to shoot 24P but I've made the choice to avoid it when I can even if the production will be edited in 24P.

 

[Donny 123]

My experience is the same as Run.. .. broadcast and corp.. for US.. was nearly always 30p..now both markets have become 23.98p..for me.. I have 3 corp shoots coming up for US prod cops and all are 23.98p..I guess this might be for computer screens..but for broadcast its far easier to make 25p for Europe from 23.98p.. I really cant remember last time I shot 30p.. its seems to have totally died a death.. have never shot 50 or 60 except for slo mo..

 

[Doug Jensen]

I rarely work on projects anymore where I don't get to dictate the shooting format, frame-rate, codec, resolution, etc. so that may explain the differences in what we are seeing. But even my last few broadcast shoots have still been 30P and I wasn't aware 24P was making inroads in that area. Interesting to hear both of your comments.

 

[Donny 123]

Im the total opposite.. I guess Run too.. I have never been the one dictating frame rates, codec, rez.. accept for sometimes being asked my advise.. for broadcast .. I believe its the ease to make 25p versions for UK.. European.. Australia.. and now maybe the emerging Chineses /India, market all.. 50Hz..
I was thinking this recently that I hadn't shot anything 29.97p for years .. or maybe only one or two.. but its definitely the minority.. and 23.98p that was the unusual one is hugely the majority over the last few years.. most of UK /Europe productions still seem to be 25p..

 

[Run&Gun]

I rarely work on projects anymore where I don't get to dictate the shooting format, frame-rate, codec, resolution, etc. so that may explain the differences in what we are seeing. But even my last few broadcast shoots have still been 30P and I wasn't aware 24P was making inroads in that area. Interesting to hear both of your comments.

Yeah, it all depends on the "world you live in".

I'd say probably 95% of my work ends up on a US network somewhere, either broadcast or "cable". For feature piece work, it's almost all 1080/23.98P acquisition, now. Used to be mostly 720/23.98P. Occasionally there is still some 720/23.98P. I'd say I've been doing 23.98P for "features" for network on a regular basis dating back to 2003/2004, then with the F900.

For LIVE and other "newsy" content, the vast majority is 720/59.94P. MAYBE once or twice a year 1080/59.94i. Last year for MNF I did shoot 1080/59.94P, but it still goes out 720/59.94P. At this point, I don't think any of the 4K/UHD stuff I've shot has ever seen the light of day as a finished 4K project, with the exception of some stuff I did for Sony earlier this year and maybe a piece for an overseas client in '15 or '16.

 

[Joshua Milligan]

So I've thought about doing this before because I like to film all of my wildlife shots for docs at 4K 60p, but was afraid that 1/60 (I would do 1/50 because I'm working with 24p frame rates for the rest of the shots) would look weird. I watched Doug's video and will say that it looked great. But just to ask, has anyone noticed shots looking weird doing this because the shutter speed is half of what it traditionally would be? Would slow motion shots of people or animals still look at great as they do with 1/120 for 60p?

 

[Liam Hall]

But just to ask, has anyone noticed shots looking weird doing this because the shutter speed is half of what it traditionally would be? Would slow motion shots of people or animals still look at great as they do with 1/120 for 60p?

Yes, it can look weird. Anything with a lot of movement will look awful. Fine if the shot is static or with limited movement but too much motion blur can look just as horrific as too little.

I often shoot 50p for 25p delivery, but that's because I'm intending to slow-mo most of the footage. And that way I can capture sound in camera (on the fs7). Shutter would most likely be 180 or 150 degrees most of the time, sometimes faster, never slower than 180 degrees.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Yeah, it all depends on the "world you live in". For LIVE and other "newsy" content, the vast majority is 720/59.94P.

You are quite right. I have never, not even once, shot anything besides test footage in 720P. And I was a relatively early adopter for HD. I haven't shot anything except 1080 and 4K since 2006.

 

[Run&Gun]

So I've thought about doing this before because I like to film all of my wildlife shots for docs at 4K 60p, but was afraid that 1/60 (I would do 1/50 because I'm working with 24p frame rates for the rest of the shots) would look weird. I watched Doug's video and will say that it looked great. But just to ask, has anyone noticed shots looking weird doing this because the shutter speed is half of what it traditionally would be? Would slow motion shots of people or animals still look at great as they do with 1/120 for 60p?

Honestly, we almost never shot with shutter when shooting "real time" 60P for all those years for broadcast, and still don't, so saying that that is half of what it would traditionally be is incorrect. Shooting "180 degree" shutter, or double the frame rate, on video cameras more or less just came about when we started shooting 24P. I did experiment with 1/120 shutter for a while with "real time" 60P and the video guys asked me to stop.

Now when I'm shooting 60 over 24 for slow-mo, I still shoot 180 degree shutter, but if it's going to be used in "real time", I don't.

Why 1/50 for 24? Is it not a dedicated video camera? Most dedicated video cameras should give you 1/48 shutter for 24P.

 

[Donny 123]

Maybe not the same reason.. but I usually shoot 1/50th with 24p ... just in case of flicker (in 50Hz country).. certainly no one can tell the difference between 1/48th and 1/50th .. Joshua,s reasons might be different..

 

[Run&Gun]

Maybe not the same reason.. but I usually shoot 1/50th with 24p ... just in case of flicker (in 50Hz country).. certainly no one can tell the difference between 1/48th and 1/50th .. Joshua,s reasons might be different..

That makes sense. But presuming he's in a 60Hz region since he was talking about 60P and 1/120 shutter.

 

[Run&Gun]

You are quite right. I have never, not even once, shot anything besides test footage in 720P. And I was a relatively early adopter for HD. I haven't shot anything except 1080 and 4K since 2006.

I'm almost the exact opposite. My intro into HD was with the F900 shooting 1080 for about three years starting around '03 and then went to 720 with the VariCam for the majority of the last decade.