Ian-T
Veteran
They are doing what Panasonic admitted to doing...and that is...watching the market. I remember the Pana rep saying that "we won't make the same mistakes as our competitors." This is what made me wait.
Meet the new kid on the block- Pentax K-7
- Thread starter squig
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Boz
Well-known member
I'm not holding my breath. Samsung, to my knowledge has never released a camera that does 24P. What have they released? 15, 20, 30, & 60P. Yes, you read that right. At least Panasonic had some history with releasing 24P in the past (Lumix), but so far Samsung hasn't shown any such inclination. My guess is the camera will do 30/60P and that's it. Of course , I would love to be wrong.
Nathan Troutman
Active member
But if the compression ,which is 17mbs in the 1080P 24fps mode, is garbage and you wind up shooting everything 720P 60fps where's your 24P?
Then, if you have to put manual Nikons or Canon lenses on it because the micro-4/3rds lenses are all slow as hell haven't you just defeated the advantage of having Auto-focus, zooming while shooting, etc.? Plus you have a 2x crop factor instead of the 1.5x of Pentax, Canon or Nikon.
To me all the GH1 has right now is a flip-able LCD and full manual control. The rest is a mixed bag. You can't try and give me the song and dance that 17mbs is acceptable when the 5D is shooting 48mbs.
It's too bad the Pentax decided to give you aperture control but not shutter and ISO. Hopefully it is as easy to trick as the 5D is. And most importantly there HAS to be a way to lock the settings. These still camera makers need to learn that with video you don't want you shutter speed changing all over the place while you're shooting.
Part of that garbage = pulldown. Isaac figured this out and the images look a great percentage better when run through the two different methods:
Apple to AIC to Compressor
Cineform (one step) via Windows.
Note: I've got a pretty high profile gig with the GH-1. They were warned about the 1080/24P. I showed it and they thought I was a nitpicking fool. They've rented my GH-1 for quite a nice price and I come with it.
Broadcast spot for a well known company.
It's all taste/relevance, but it IS 24P.
Not at all. The camera is useable up to 800 ISO. that makes it pretty fast. And I never listed Auto Focus as anything to sell a camera. Wasn't in ANY of those three points.
Also, Full Frame is NOT the standard for Cinematic or Commercial Acquisition. The Crop factor is NOT 2x in Video Mode. It's more like 1.5x or close, which is pretty-damned close to what RED shoots @ 4K.
I guess people are complainign about the FOV of RED in 4K, though... Wait, no they aren't. Because it's close to what we've been shooting all this time.
Lastly, the ADVANTAGE is being able to adopt ANY lens to the camera. Auto Features are just icing on the cake with the Kit Lens, something you can't use with any of the other cameras properly.
I don't have to. The GH-1 just beat the MKii for a high profile commercial today. The Song and Dance is green and it's going in my pocket.
And oddly enough, that's exactly what the 5D and Pentax is doing. And that's the ONLY point that I listed that you touched on.
Strange.
That post had NOTHING to do with the GH-1 either, it had to do with a WINNING camera. And for a CAMERA to be used in a PROFESSIONAL environment PROPERLY it SHOULD have those three things listed.
if the MKii HAD that I would HAVE it in my hands, if not TWO of them.
When and IF it gets Manual Controls, you'll probably see pictures of my GH-1 and MKii side by side. Not like either cost a lot. lol
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Yeah, on the stills side I shoot Pentax...so deep down inside I was hoping for a total "game changer" on the video side from them, but not really expecting it.
Oh don't get me wrong, the K-7 looks like a fantastic camera...and I want one...but I still want a GH-1 to go along with it.
It's still exciting though, look at where we are now. I'm hardly going to stand still and wait for the next generation, but a year ago who would have imagined we'd be here, and just imagine where we'll be in another year or 2.
Oh don't get me wrong, the K-7 looks like a fantastic camera...and I want one...but I still want a GH-1 to go along with it.
It's still exciting though, look at where we are now. I'm hardly going to stand still and wait for the next generation, but a year ago who would have imagined we'd be here, and just imagine where we'll be in another year or 2.
Nathan Troutman
Active member
You mean you remove the pulldown in editing and suddenly the H.264 has been encoded at 48mbs! Wow, that's pretty impressive.
Well shot 35mm adapter footage on an HV20 can pass for "Pro" video especially when you don't see what the camera looks like that's making it. I've shot professional spots for real companies with HDV and everybody thought it was great. Part of that is the fact most companies don't know anything about video which is why they're hiring me.
Very true but to me that is one of the advantages of the GH1 if there was better lens selections.
Never said it was. But it's nice to have it if it's available and it does happen to be available. I never knew that 24P was the standard for commercial acquisition either. So why wouldn't 30P work for a commercial spot? I get the film thing or I want that look for my music video, but corporate work. You have to have 24P for that now too.[/QUOTE]
With a manual lens on a 5D you can lock ISO at 100 (or 200 with the HTP mode enabled) and have full shutter control or lock 1/40th shutter and get full ISO control using the exposure compensation wheel. For whatever reason these two spots lock the camera into adjusting only the other parameter. Does it work - well just look at the footage there's plenty of it out there.
For what it's worth I agree 24P and manual control are a priority. However I think the first thing everybody talks about with any camera is video quality. So I don't get how that wouldn't be #1 on your list because for most anybody else that's all that matters. It's why we've been fighting the Sony vs Panasonic war for all of these years. This is a huge discussion about how the image is processed, compressed and handled by the camera. It deals with hundreds of different technical issues. But a lot of times it does all boil down to what you see (Vincent Laforte) and the compression (that when done right) you don't see.
I know it is a complete mistake that such solid compression and image handling got out of Canon at $2500 with the 5D. That's because Canon's video department like Sony and Panasonic have been selling unnecessarily poor video quality as an excuse to charge unnecessarily higher prices for better quality. The 5D's breaks this mold. Yet you skip over this massive advantage for the 5D like it doesn't matter. No all we need is manual control, 24P, and HDMI out but who cares about the quality of the compression and how good the image looks. The 5D creates a better image with better compression. It's shortcomings are well known, but to ignore it's superior image quality in favor of only talking about 24P and manual control is leaving out some of the truth. If the 1080P mode that has 24P is so heavily compressed that some people might feel it's not a viable shooting mode than you no longer have a 24P camera.
In the end regardless of the 5D's shortcomings it's video is simply better looking and less compressed than that of the GH1. You can't change the fact that both the 5D and GH1 record to the exact same codec (h.264) but the GH1 is 17mbs and the 5D is 48mbs. The 5D is a full frame sensor and can shoot very useable footage at ISO 3200. These are very real advantages it has compared to the GH1. Finally if the 1080P mode is not going to work for someone because it's heavily compressed than all you have is another 720P camera with better manual controls that happens to cost twice as much as the Canon T1i and Nikon D5000.
In my mind the only reason that Canon hasn't unlocked the 5D is because they're prepping to release the real deal do it all camera that will naturally cost at least twice as much. But let's be fair to the GH1. Panasonic was careful not to give away too much especially in the most important area - compression quality. The GH1 footage isn't bad but it isn't revolutionary. The 5D footage however is really that good and I know it's because Canon's video department had nothing to do with it because they never would have allowed it to see the light of day at this price point.
So, my advice to those out there: Unlike Panasonic fanboys I'm not going to chant buy a GH1 nor do I chant buy a 5D. Right now there are only a set of compromises to choose from and it looks like the Pentax K-7 is another new addition to that equation. For myself I'm used to workarounds. I've been using 35mm adapters for years and they are one hell of a workaround. So I can live with the manual control workarounds for the 5D because the best looking image is the 5D. You may feel the GH1 has the best features. The D5000 has a great price. Unfortunately nobody has put it all together and most certainly not the GH1. For myself first on my list of must-haves is image quality not manual controls or 24p so I'm using a 5D - besides it's already almost manual control anyhow. It's just a bit of a pain in the ass - kind of like that 35mm film adapter set-up I used to shoot with.
Well, this wasn't even a GH-1 vs MKii discussion, but looks like I struck a nerve with the three most important lists. Which again had nothing to do with GH-1 vs ANY camera, but just the three things that these cameras SHOULD have if we want to put them in a professional environment.
Image quality pales in comparison to MANUAL controls. No matter how much trickery is going on, you can use it for yourself all you want but the second you eat someone's time up when it costs money it's over.
We experience this same thing with sub P+S 35mm Adapters, and it wasn't until the second gen did they start making ANY headway. Some people STILL have sour tastes in their mouths because of the workarounds.
Image Quality is important, but doesn't really mean a hill of beans if it's not working on a fundamental basis. AKA Repetable performances at the push of a button.
MKii has the better image, but it just really doesn't make a difference in a large environment (you and a friend doesn't equate to large environment) if you can't repeat it.
Again, I'm talking about these things bleeding over into a Professional Atmosphere with real clients breathing over your shoulder. I've heard it from TOO MANY MKii users that have done corporate stuff, the NUMBER ONE suck is NO MANUAL CONTROL. Funny looks, what's going on and "oh is the time about to run out on the camera again?"
Outside of that, it doesn't matter. Use what you want and can deal with. This isn't a GH-1 vs MKii thing, it's a BASIC OPERATIONS thing.
Image quality pales in comparison to MANUAL controls. No matter how much trickery is going on, you can use it for yourself all you want but the second you eat someone's time up when it costs money it's over.
We experience this same thing with sub P+S 35mm Adapters, and it wasn't until the second gen did they start making ANY headway. Some people STILL have sour tastes in their mouths because of the workarounds.
Image Quality is important, but doesn't really mean a hill of beans if it's not working on a fundamental basis. AKA Repetable performances at the push of a button.
MKii has the better image, but it just really doesn't make a difference in a large environment (you and a friend doesn't equate to large environment) if you can't repeat it.
Again, I'm talking about these things bleeding over into a Professional Atmosphere with real clients breathing over your shoulder. I've heard it from TOO MANY MKii users that have done corporate stuff, the NUMBER ONE suck is NO MANUAL CONTROL. Funny looks, what's going on and "oh is the time about to run out on the camera again?"
Outside of that, it doesn't matter. Use what you want and can deal with. This isn't a GH-1 vs MKii thing, it's a BASIC OPERATIONS thing.
Nathan...
O....K....? So, to sum up: 5D is good, GH1 is good but 'different' good, D5000 is cheaper, K-7 is newer. Gotcha.
Not trying to be a jerk, honest, but much of what your stating is either known or been argued about much earlier in these long threads. If you were to give a thumbs up to any of these cameras it would be the Canon. I can respect that. I would too if it weren't for a few factors. It's simply an individual's choice to which 'workaround' they're most comfortable with as all these cameras need to have one.
O....K....? So, to sum up: 5D is good, GH1 is good but 'different' good, D5000 is cheaper, K-7 is newer. Gotcha.
Not trying to be a jerk, honest, but much of what your stating is either known or been argued about much earlier in these long threads. If you were to give a thumbs up to any of these cameras it would be the Canon. I can respect that. I would too if it weren't for a few factors. It's simply an individual's choice to which 'workaround' they're most comfortable with as all these cameras need to have one.
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PappasArts
Veteran
Kholi,
Here is the Mark II vs the Canon A1.
Download the 720P versions.
What's funny is this looks just like all my 35mm 5298 EXR 500T stock vs HD cameras I have. The A1 looks like video while the 5D looks like 5298 ( with no grain ) tele-cined to 2K. The 5D MII is insane good. It's almost wrong........
http://www.vimeo.com/4445879
Now Kholi, why can't you do this same thing with the GH1 vs 5D MII since you have access to both?
It would be any harder than what this guy did...
Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.p...9&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.p...5&postcount=84
Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Pappas/573417404
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }
.
Because it doesn't interest me to do so. I already know the MKii outputs a better 1080 image. LOL.
Dunno HOW many times I have to say this. And that 1080 image doesn't matter one lick if I have to fight with it on someone else's dime. Like I said a good THIRTY times already, if the MKii gets manual controls I'll shell out money for an MKii, Extra Battery and a Contax Zeiss adapter.
It'll sit RIGHT with the GH-1. I may not USE it but it'll sure as hell get rented.
I really can't understand why it's so hard to get that I've already said the MKii outputs better 1080 than the GH-1. It just doesn't MATTER that it does. Just like it didn't matter that the EX-1 was faster, cleaner, more resolute and more expensive than the HPX170.
Dunno HOW many times I have to say this. And that 1080 image doesn't matter one lick if I have to fight with it on someone else's dime. Like I said a good THIRTY times already, if the MKii gets manual controls I'll shell out money for an MKii, Extra Battery and a Contax Zeiss adapter.
It'll sit RIGHT with the GH-1. I may not USE it but it'll sure as hell get rented.
I really can't understand why it's so hard to get that I've already said the MKii outputs better 1080 than the GH-1. It just doesn't MATTER that it does. Just like it didn't matter that the EX-1 was faster, cleaner, more resolute and more expensive than the HPX170.
PappasArts
Veteran
Dude don't get your panties all twisted, no one including I is saying you said anything of the sort. Dude for someone who yells " game over" atop of the hills, you sure have sensitive nerves. No worries, relax, we live in laid back California.
The reason for the request, is you put yourself out in the front of the populous quite demonstratively; being the first to buy, and report with strong conjecture and prowess. With that said, since you own both, which most do not on DVX. It would be cool to see that comparison. If you don't want to, just for curiosity enlightenment , then don't. It's cool!
Like I said Kholi no worries. It was just a suggestion.......
Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1638289&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84
Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Pappas/573417404
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }
.
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Doh. ouch. Doh. Doh.
What does this silly 5d vs GH1 war have to do with the K-7??
Anyway... To me it's simple math.
$2700+$x lenses+$x time (fiddling)= naw
$1500+any lens I already own+free AF zoom+manual control= sure why not
(basically I agree with Kholi)
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Nathan Troutman
Active member
That's a pretty good summary. All I'm trying to get across is that all of the choices are compromises. This whole thing started because I was trying to make the point that because of the compromised 1080P 24 fps mode in the GH1 in terms of image quality you really have yet another 720P camera that can't shoot 24P. So you're getting manual control but are you really getting a useable 24P mode with the best image quality possible?
What does this have to do with Pentax - nothing. The Pentax has its own set of compromises - like a lack of manual control. However, it does have some interesting features like the image stabilization in the body of the camera. With an ability to control aperture plus the ability to at least lock in the auto settings this could be doable. The 720P mode looks like a really solid data rate for good looking video.
Yes we want manual control. Why anybody continues to release new cameras without it is kind of confusing. But on the 5D because you can lock in the settings and there are ways to work it into a repeatable manual control that is useable. As far as I know the Canon T1i, D5000 & D90 don't have this ability - meaning they are truly 100% auto. But they're also all in the $800 range. We'll have to see ultimately what the Pentax can and cannot do.
I guess I'm just used to working with the 5D and don't find the quasi-manual mode to be that impossible to work with. I think once you know how to do it you'd see it's not so impossible. It's a pain in the ass but it's doable. Better options than the 5D/GH1 are going to come.
Martti Ekstrand
Veteran
Just in from Twitter and Phillp Bloom at the Panasonic GH-1 UK launch day:
dustinuy: what were the things you told the panasonic rep from japan?
phillpbloom: higher bitrate. He said it was limited due to consumer archiving? But I said at least make it an option. He said ok.
http://twitter.com/philipbloom
We'll see what comes out of that - if it's a firmware update or next model.
dustinuy: what were the things you told the panasonic rep from japan?
phillpbloom: higher bitrate. He said it was limited due to consumer archiving? But I said at least make it an option. He said ok.
http://twitter.com/philipbloom
We'll see what comes out of that - if it's a firmware update or next model.
squig
Veteran
Yeah I'm with Kholi and Isaac, the DSLR is just the brain. You swap out the brain for a better one. My D90 is history, I'm gonna grab a GH1 if the D400 isn't announced soon. The brain amounts to only about 15% of the cost of my rig and I'll only lose a couple of hundred dollars replacing the brain. You can easily spend more on a matte box, follow focus, or lens than you do on the brain so there's not really that much to complain about bar the shitty consumer codec.
It's a real shame the K-7 doesn't have manual control and is 30p because I suspect the picture is going to be very nice probably even better than the 5DMKII.
It's a real shame the K-7 doesn't have manual control and is 30p because I suspect the picture is going to be very nice probably even better than the 5DMKII.
Exactly. I'm sure this is going to become pretty standard practice over the next few years. Right now we have a choice of several good "brains" and more on the horizon. There's no reason not to mix and match bodies during shooting, for different strengths and weaknesses. If you already have a good collection of Pentax glass, then this looks like an exiting prospect. Want to add slow mo, or need the manual control in certain situations, then get a GH1 with an adapter. It' s only going to get more interesting.
Nathan Troutman
Active member
Here's a good sensor chart to let you see how big or small these sensors are.
The GH1 is a 2x crop factor with normal 35mm lenses. The Rebel T1i is 1.62x, the D5000, D90 and new Pentax are 1.5x and the 5D is full-frame (actually larger than the normal S35 film format normally used for features.)
The GH1 is a 2x crop factor with normal 35mm lenses. The Rebel T1i is 1.62x, the D5000, D90 and new Pentax are 1.5x and the 5D is full-frame (actually larger than the normal S35 film format normally used for features.)
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Pappas the issue is people just either aren't reading or not getting simple explainations???
For example: I clearly stated twice to you that I don't own an MKii. But you keep saying that I do.
See what I'm getting at?
Secondly, there's nothing but trouble in shootouts. People with investments to protect on both sides of the fence cry this or that. We know it from experience and it's not worth my time, personally.
We already know the MKii has the better image. What else can be gained??
It won't change the fact that the GH1 is still the more well rounded tool and it won change that the mkii is better in lowlight yadda yadda.
For example: I clearly stated twice to you that I don't own an MKii. But you keep saying that I do.
See what I'm getting at?
Secondly, there's nothing but trouble in shootouts. People with investments to protect on both sides of the fence cry this or that. We know it from experience and it's not worth my time, personally.
We already know the MKii has the better image. What else can be gained??
It won't change the fact that the GH1 is still the more well rounded tool and it won change that the mkii is better in lowlight yadda yadda.