me66 or 416 or rode ntg3

[Soundie76]

Sorry to offend Mr Willett,

My reference to the MKH series is wrong. Could you please clarify for me that when Sennheiser purchased Neumann, that they didn't take some of their technology(not all) and use this in the MKH 416u3 series, and also the MKH 60 and MKH70. This is what I have read and been told by Sennheiser resellers when looking to purchase a MKH70 or Neumann 82i.
In regards to powering the Super Schoeps CMIT 5u, my reference clearly indicated to not using external powering, and the lack of Mixer/Recorders that have this capability internally.

Regards

76S

 

[Noiz2]

Then I guess you skipped over

Hi Chris,

The NTG-3 has been extensively tested at sub-zero temperatures (rated to -12 degrees). We have many reports of the microphone being used free of any performance issues in demanding environments including arctic regions.

Like all RØDE broadcast mics (and the Blimp) the NTG-3 comes with a 10 year warranty following online registration, so if you are experiencing any issues please contact your local service center to arrange a warranty service.
(RØDE Microphones - International distributors and service agents)

I believe you've already done this as our Service Manager is expecting the microphone to arrive from the service center. Once we receive it we'll run tests to isolate the cause of the failure.

and this one

I have used both my NTG 2 and NTG 3 in the winter time in 11 degress F (-10 C) with no problem.

Its common practice (and sense) to slowly cool down the gear prior to using it in very cold conditions and vice versa for very warm conditions. I find that putting my Kata bag in my garage for 1-2 hours prior to leaving allows the camera to come close to outdoor conditions and at a slow pace due to the bag acting as insulation.

On the thread you started the post you quoted is the only person who had a problem and while it is a forum populated with a lot of seasoned pros that was the first post by Tyler and I would say that anyone who's only backup was putting a zoom on a boom pole (probably what they were recording on) is not an experienced user. He also has his physics backward, condensation forms on cold surfaces that have warmer moister air around them. As in when the warm air inside a hollow metal object touches that metal after it's put in freezing conditions.

I'm not saying your making it up because you have some strange grudge against Rode. But there are a few cases, a total of four people between the three threads that have had problems and all of them seem to be inexperienced users. It is entirely possible to make perfectly good equipment not work by treating in wrong. A number of excellent mics have issues with condensation and this may be an issue. Or it may be that those mics were just trashed. NONE of the experienced users reported any problems even when working in worse conditions than the folks who did have problems. So it is quite likely that the problem has more to do with the users than the mic. And it is certainly not grounds for trashing the mic. You don't seem to own one and have said that you have personally never experienced the problem so I'm not sure what your getting so worked up about.

I did read that thread, Noiz2.

I started this one:

http://jwsound.net/SMF/index.php?topic=7610.0

Where this was reported:



Condensation or not, if a Zoom H4n kicks your ass, you have a bona fide problem. I'm calling a spade a spade. NTG3 are failing in the cold. Period. A 10 year warranty won't do you much good when something dies in the field in the middle of a shoot and you need to continue working. If you would rather have a frozen H4n on a stick over a 416, that's your choice.

 

[ggrantly]

+1 to Noiz.

So, if you slowly cool down a NTG-3, will it have the same difficulty as going from room temp to sub-freezing and flipping the on switch? I haven't done any "cold" work with mine, but I have used it in moist environs (I live in the PNW) and have not had any problems.

Grant

 

[John Willett]

Sorry to offend Mr Willett,

My reference to the MKH series is wrong. Could you please clarify for me that when Sennheiser purchased Neumann, that they didn't take some of their technology(not all) and use this in the MKH 416u3 series, and also the MKH 60 and MKH70. This is what I have read and been told by Sennheiser resellers when looking to purchase a MKH70 or Neumann 82i.

Someone is talking rubbish here.

Both the Sennheiser MKH 416 and the Neumann KMR 81i and 82i were on the market years before Sennheiser bought Neumann in 1990.

Also the MKH 60 and 70 were on the market several years before Sennheiser bought Neumann.

To say that Sennheiser took Neumann technology for the MKH series is incorrect and libellous. MKH technology is way ahead of the technology of AF condenser mics which is based on valve (vacuum tube) technology.


Sennheiser and Neumann have shared some technology though, I would say, but definitely not as you describe.

The areas I see them working together is the Neumann microphone head on the Sennheiser hand-held radiomic. - the Neumann dynamic broadcast mic. (Neumann had not done a dynamic mic. before that time) and the new Sennheiser AF condenser microphone (MK4 and the e960).

The main core microphones - Neumann condenser mics. and Sennheiser MKH are very different technologies, both are absolute tops in their fields and neither has anything to learn from the other in this respect.

What they can learn from each other is that Neumann can learn about dynamic microphones from Sennheiser and Sennheiser can learn about AF condensers from Neumann (NB: MKH series are RF microphones not AF ones).

That's why Sennheiser and Neumann work together and don't really compete as brands at all as they have different markets.

In regards to powering the Super Schoeps CMIT 5u, my reference clearly indicated to not using external powering, and the lack of Mixer/Recorders that have this capability internally.

The standard CMIT 5U is an AF condenser microphone that uses normal 48V phantom power.

The SuperCMIT is a digital microphone that requires 10V/250mA phantom power according to AES42. Schoeps do the PSD 2 U powering box that will power the SuperCMIT and output standard AES3 (or S-PDIF) to go into a normal digital input.

If a dealer has been telling you otherwise they are talking rubbish.

If you get to the European AES Convention in May, I will be doing a lecture on Digital Microphones.

 

[Sam Mallery]

Actually if you read the thread

I'm not getting worked up, but I don't appreciate that you came out hurling an insult.

With all the inexperienced people out there doing everything wrong, using every conceivable brand and make of shotgun microphone, the NTG-3 is the only one that's coming away from this brutal winter with some bad press.

When someone asks for gear advice, I dispense it. That's it.

 

[Noiz2]

OK, didn't mean to insult. But your assessment of the thread, even the one you started is very different from what is actually in those threads. You started off talking about how the Rode failed in cold conditions and implied that the threads supported that claim. They actually don't. "Dispensing" advice that is misleading or wrong is not doing anybody favors.

If you think Rode is the only mic that has ever had a failure you are very wrong. Scoeps is notorious for crapping out in humid conditions, in one of the treads you pointed to someone talks about a 416 that brew up on them. Lithium batteries (as in the ones SD uses on their recorders) have been known to burst into flames in peoples bags on shoots. Everything can break and most things eventually do.

If the aim is to give useful advice then bringing up the point that some people have had this issue with the NTG3 is completely valid. Going off and trashing the mic based on the threads you point to is completely inappropriate. The worst I could say after reading the threads is that the NTG3 may need to be kept extra dry if your going to go out in sub freezing temperatures. And that may mean it's not the best choice for a non professional user. That would put it in the same ballpark as Schoeps, not a bad ballpark.

There is also a slight possibility that there was production problem that affected a few mic's. And IF there is actually a more universal moisture issue then there will probably be a design improvement. My guess however is that there is a particular thing that one should not do that professionals generally don't do that causes this issue and that Rode will figure out that vulnerability and make a modification to prevent it in the future. IF that is the case it is probably something like those students were doing vocal playing around with it and ended up blowing moist air into the capsule.

If for example the "in the car" testing consisted of the guy talking right into the capsule and then going out into the freezing weather. That is not something a pro would do but I can see it as something a student might do. If you did that, especially if you didn't have a zeppelin protecting the mic, you would get a film of ice on the membrane and have most of the symptoms described. That is not the mics fault, but it may be somewhat fixable.


This leads right into the problems manufacturers are facing with the downward spiral of pricing. Not to many amateurs are going to drop $2K on a mic so the people who buy them tend to know what they are doing. Once you start creeping into the affordable range you start getting users who expect the same kind of equipment to withstand anything they do to it. And are VERY fast at pointing fingers at everyone but themselves.


As a quick fix for anyone actually having this problem, though nobody here seems to, stick one of those hand warmer packs in the zeppelin and it will keep the mic above freezing. It's what you can do to keep other equipment functional in sub zero conditions.

 

[gco]

Thoughtful, cogent and well articulated--spot on.
As an inexperienced person trying not to do everything wrong, I really appreciate your contributions to this site Noiz. Same goes for a bunch of others whose contributions actually help people like me and maintain the standards at the same time. :thumbup:

 

[ric creaser]

I think the Rode NTG 3 is the go. I am working on a reality show at the moment with it, and it is great. It has a lovely slightly wider pattern (than a Sennheiser 416 which I was using previously) resulting in less off mike audio.
SWomebody said earlier, on AB testing the Sennheiser and Rode are very close, and do a great job in pulling out voices in noisy locations.

 

[sonidista]

I have used all of the three and here's my advice:

Get a 416 if you can get a used one. They are very rugged and I think I have never ever seen one that was broken or not working in any way. NTG3 is a great mic for the money. Don't worry about the scary rumors. Rode know what they do. I have a NTG-1 and it's guite good. NTG-3 sounds better than NTG-1 or 2. For the price it's a great choice and it will suffice for anything that's not big budget feature film. There you would take something more expensive, just cause you can.
Oh, and needless to say that ME66 is a really shitty mic, much worse than the Rode NTG-1 which is in the same price range.

 

[Sam Mallery]

Yesterday I had the chance to pick the brains of my friend Bill (and a few of his co-workers) who sell shotgun mics and other ENG gear for a living. These people talk to inexperienced and experienced customers all day everyday, and they hadn't spoken to anyone who had a single bad experience with an NTG3. Usually when something is flawed in a piece of gear, they are among the first to know about it- and they learn about it from interactions with actual people (not on anonymous Internet forums).

This makes me think that the reports that those four or so people posted on various forums were either an isolated manufacturing issue, a series of flukes, or potentially unfounded and false.