Matching the Z1 to super-16mm?

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dan_aka_jack

Well-known member
Hi guys,

Please may I ask your advice on shooting with the Sony Z1 camera and how best to match it with super-16mm footage? For example:

Should I use CineFrame25? I understand that you loose resolution when shooting CF25 as compared to shooting 50i.

Should I use CineGamma?

Should I avoid tracking the Z1? I've read that the compression used in HDV hates pans and sideways tracks.

Some more details of the project:

* Shooting a 5 minute live dance show
* The dancers will be well lit, the background will be very dark
* We're shooting on two Z1s and two super-16mm cameras (fine grained stock)
* The finished product will be a "dual mode" DVD. The DVD-Video partition will contain a standard def version of the film, the DVD-Data partition will contain various HD versions.
* We're editing on Premiere Pro 1.5.1 and After Effects 6.5 Pro.

Many thanks,
Jack
 
Hi Jack,

fromm my point of view cine gamma is a good way of shifting the materials levels towards the film behaviour (sort of). You should not use cine frame and deinterlace in AE using fieldskit.

Tracking is crucial. You will have doubled interlacing artifacts when something on high contrast passes through. Avoid if possible.

Use the best tapes you can get or DVCAM-tapes. dropframes result in major loss of picture (half a second, i.e. one GOP).

capturing the material would from my experience (but I am a Mac person) best if using a standalone DVHS Cap application.

Good luck
 
How about you just shoot the super16 and telecine transfer the footage to high def (HDCAM or DVCPROHD) That way you shoot with the highest quality (s16) and you will have a hidef master to down convert into SD formats if you desire in post. The FX-1 is not a very impressive camera at all. It cannot compare with s16 and decent lenses.
 
Jib, You're right about the superior picture quality of film. But there are two things enormously on the Z1's side: 50i (or even 60i) ist great for fast movements like in dance. They become quite smooth. Second: Sometimes there is a bit low light even on well lit scenes in theatre, so maybe you'll need more ASA (or Gain).

Still, as a film person, of course film is greater than everything. IMHO
 
They won't match.

I'd shoot 60i and massage it in post if it were me. By why not shoot the whole thing either completely film or completely video?

I would use either film or video to show a different part of the dance, either interviews or something. the dancing should all be either all film or all video.
 
Hi everyone,

Thanks loads for all your replies.

Yes, I'm quite worried about getting the HDV and S16mm to match. If I had the budget then I would love to shoot it all on S16... but unfortunately we can only afford two S16mm cameras and we need to symaltaneously shoot as many angles as possible because we only have one take.

So, as I understand it, the fairly unanimous decision is to shoot 50i with CineGamma enabled, is that correct? (I don't want to shoot 60i because I live in a PAL world). I'll make sure we keep the HDV cameras as static as possible.

Many thanks,
Jack
 
They won't look anything at all alike. If they did, why even bother with film?
I take that back, shoot reversal 16mm overexpose two stops and transfer with a film chain.

Your film will look like total $h!T and therefore more closely resemble the video tape.

You have to pick one or the other in this case. The films that have successfully used
both mediums never did it when cutting several angles of the same scene together.
They have always been different scenes and never multiple angles of the same scene.

Go completely film or completely video for the scene with multiple angles in one take.
It's the only option.
 
HDV is the Devil.

HDV is the Devil.

dan_aka_jack said:
I've read that the compression used in HDV hates pans and sideways tracks.
Click to expand...
Long-GOP MPEG-2 formats hate anything that moves, including dancers.
 
If price/performance is your primary concern, then look into renting four SDX900's for your shoot.
They are Standard Def cameras that produce sharper images than the Sony HDV.

Forget film stock, processing, and telecine. Forget HDV crap. Go Panasonic AJ-SDX900.
 
Price / performance is a big issue. We're blagging a lot of the kit and I'm not sure if I'd be able to get such good deals on SDX900s. We're using relatively old 16mm cameras (SR2) and we're getting the two HDV cameras from a mate.

We can't forget film - we need smooth slow mo and high dynamic range capture.

Yes, I agree - "HDV is the devil" and, personally, I think Sony have totally dropped the ball - the new Panasonic DVC PRO HD camera will be awesome.

And we need HD video capture - we're going to produce an HD version of the film.

So, whilst I agree with many of the things you say thisiswells, I think I'm stuck with 16mm and HDV for the current project.
 
Well, SRII is a 16mm camera, not a Super16mm camera, unless it's been converted.
The cost of film stock is pretty high, plus you've got processing and telecine minimums.

Assisted on a Super16mm SRII shoot two days ago. Personally, I love that camera.
What I'm saying is a good SD camera will actually produce shaper images on tape than Sony HDV.
There is a point at which higher resolution chips are not utilized because of low resolution lenses and high high compression. At that point, the SD camera looks sharper. Sony has even acknowledged that DSR-570 footage upressed to HD looks sharper than the HDV camera.

Over here, I can rent a SDX900 (without lens, of course) for $350/Day. That's only $20 more than the price of a video assist for a SRII ($330/Day) So, that's where I am coming from. If you've already got the gear to do it, then great. I love film. I love HD. See my Profile picture.. That's me with a Varicam.

But, you know as well as I, that HDV and film will not cut well together in a multi camera situation. Nor, do I think you're saving any money money by using 16mm telecined to HD for your production vs. just shooting VariCam. Maybe it's not easy to find this gear in your area... I dunno.. Just most of what you're saying isn't making sense to me. Your client apparently wants HD, and you're making the concession by shooting with consumer equipment that isn't nearly as nice looking as good SD and so you can call it a HD version. Whatever works, I guess.

Are you DP'ing this shoot or what? Are you familiar with the high costs of film stock, processing,
and HD telecine of overcranked Super16mm film? How on earth will you edit HD telecine of Super16mm film in Adobe Premier? Please, for the love of all things good, don't tell me you're going to telecine to HDV.. Oh, boy....
 
Hi!

Yes, our SRIIs have S16 gates and 16:9 ground glass.

We're getting our fuji filmstock for 52UKP per can (we tried to use re-cans but couldn't get enough of the right stock). We're only gonna be turning over for a grand total of 5 minutes, so even with two cameras running at 50fps we're only
using a total of 800 foot so developing costs are fairly low (9pence per foot). The entire film camera package (2xSRII, lenses etc) is costing £200. The HD neg scan is gonna be very cheap because we're doing it on down-time (of the order of £100). We're doing a 1080x1920 data scan to 10-bit log Cineon files. I'm gonna convert these using a tech-grade LUT to DV for an offline edit in Premiere Pro, then import the edit into After Effects and manually replace the DV proxies with log-to-lin converted Cineon files.

I'm producing, operating one of the cameras, directing, editing and grading the project.

The 'client' for this project is a good friend of mine - we went to school togother. It's a relatively casual project so we can take some risks and try to shoot for the best product possible on the low budget. She's not very tech literate and she didn't actually require HD... but I figured that her project really deserved to be shot in HD because we want to show off the intricacies of her wonderful clothes. So I described the issue to her (in a rather biased fashion, I must admit) and she decided that she'd really like an HD version of the film. Basically, I'm trying to get her an HD, filmic product for the price of a multi-camera DV shoot.

We're planning to use the HDV cameras to get the wide shots whilst we'll use the 16mm for slo-mo close ups. I've seen DV intercut with 16mm and it just about worked.

Has anyone actually seen HDV intercut with 16mm? The blurb on the Sony site has some hot-shot DP enthusing about intercutting HDV with 35mm!!! (If you'll believe that then you'll believe that Apple benchmarks are generalisable!)

Thanks for all the help so far - I'm very much enjoying all the replies you generous people are giving me!

Thanks,
Jack
 
Thanks for the wonderful explanation of your workflow. Very interesting approach.
One lab here in the states will scan HD direct to HDD in the BlackMagic codec.. I'd like to try it out.

I, too, would like to see some HDV cut with any kind of film for comparison.
And, as a Mac user, Apple is full of compressed air.
 
Hi!

Sorry, forgot to mention that part of the workflow - our scanning facility is dumping the Cineons direct to my USB2 disk. I can't wait until everything is direct-to-disk!

Well... if everything goes to plan then I'll be able to post you a film/HDV hybrid project in about a month! Fingers crossed it wont look totally shite.

What's your honest opionion of the workflow? What would you have done differently? To be honest, if I had a bit more prep time I probably would have tried to blag a VariCam or something like that... I shied away from that option because I heard that VeriCams or F900s are virtually impossible to get deals on.... which, unfortunately, left us with HDV.

Don't worry, I'm an HDV sceptic too... I'd be only too happy if there was a way for me to do this project without using HDV. I'm really quite angry at Sony for their gutless launch into prosumer HD. People have mentioned that Sony lost their way since the Sony founder died in the 90s... and I can well believe that.
 
VariCams in the quantity you would need are nearly impossible to obtain in the UK. I think there are only four in the country, two are privately owned, one is for rent. Don't know about the other one. That's what I heard anyway.

Even here it's hard to find deals on them. Thing is, as you're well aware, video equipment drops value like a rock. Those SRII's have stayed strong on the secondhand market for a while and will continue to be valuable... So the "life span" is longer and hence the rate more affordable.

Sounds like you know more about scanning film and editing in after effects than I do... I don't think I would do much differently. Workflow looks awesome. Like I said, I'd really like to try out scanning some stuff and grading myself in a 10 bit program (ie-AfterEffects). I'm not a trained colorist, but I think I've got a pretty good eye that could get generally acceptable results by doing the work myself on my computer. Thanks for the info.

Brian
 
Did You Listen....
Transfer the 16mm film to HIDEF...HDCAM or DVCPROHD. That way you have a HIDEF version of the project without using crappy HDV cameras. You can make SD copies from that. And it will look better than any cinealta of varicam footage...If you have good lenses. Or shoot DVX footage for SD and shoot the SRII's for you HD version. Just stay away from HDV.
 
It can intercut if thats what your going for. The mixture adds some edge to the content If it works for your project do it. But I still recomend transfering to HD with the s16. You can always downconvert it, then you can use the HDV and the s16 to make one video out of all 4 cameras and have more to edit and work with. Then dump an SD version from your HD sequence.
 
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