Matching HPX500 and HPX170

Tomas Riuka

Tomas Riuka

Well-known member
Hi,

i wonder if anyone tried to match hpx500 and hpx170 properly with vectorscope monitor? I tried hooking up both cameras to my bt-lh2550 monitor and seems like to match the color settings, hpx500 has to be on cinelike matrix and hpx170 on norm 2 with +2 chroma level.

Did anyone do this properly? Would appreaciate that.
 
I would start with the presets off the Panasonic website (the ones that are made to be accurate from the camalign charts) and then adjust both camera settings from that. It will at least give you a starting point.
 
The presets should be different, each camera is different. My making them both accurate to the chart, then they (theoretically) should be "seeing" the same things the same ways.

Also, make sure they're on the same white balance setting. (I know, its basic, but it could have been overlooked).
 
Guys, seriously, can anyone help me? I got a color chart today... watching on the screen chart, colors seems to be pretty much the same, when i check real life scene, they're like day and night...
 
No, you can't just set them at zero. The same settings may result in different images, when you're talking about different models.

Tomas, if you want to match them up, the ideal tool to use is a vectorscope and a waveform monitor. A color chart with a vectorscope will help you dial in the color, and a waveform will help you set the black levels and the gamma the same. You should be able to set the same basic settings on each as a good starting point, and by all means use MANUAL white balance -- don't rely on the presets. But the color is going to be different, not just because of different chipsets and different processing, but also because the lens itself can add its own influence to the color.

Plus, you're going to have to face the fact that the 500 is going to have more dynamic range -- it's a 2/3" chip and has something on the order of 2 stops' more dynamic range. That's going to make the images look different.

That said, I matched an HVX200 to an HPX500 pretty well up at the Iditarod multi-camera shoot, so it can certainly be done, it just takes time.

Adobe OnLocation is the ideal tool for it; it lets you frame-grab a frame from one camera, overlay the live feed from the other, split-screen it, check the waveform and vectorscope, etc.
 
Appreciate your info Barry!

I did work with color chart today. I set up both cameras next to each other, shot color chart and connected both cameras to bt-lh2550 monitor. I came up with something pretty close, but darker colors differ alot. If chart looked almost similar from both cams, real life image showed different, hpx500 on dark brown color had more magenta, hpx170 - more green and i couldn't get the green out of hpx170 neither reduce the magenta on hpx500.

WB of course was set manually, not with preset (my hpx500 has that bug where 5600k WB has greenish tint, can't fix that locally, have to send my camera to Germany as it's the closest proper service . I live in Lithuania).

I do understand about dynamic range, and of course, hpx500 renders colors better, than hpx170... though i expected to match 170 very close to hpx500 color rendition.. seems like there's simply not enough scene settings, which are available lets say in canon a1 (individual matrixes for red, green and blue , etc) to set cameras for very close similar color reproduction.

Barry, is there any chance you could dig out those settings somehow? i would really appreciate that...

Btw, i have Angenieux HD lens on my hpx500, and also changed to Fujinon HA series lens, this didn't have any visible effect on color rendition...

Best regards,
Tomas

Barry_Green said:
No, you can't just set them at zero. The same settings may result in different images, when you're talking about different models.

Tomas, if you want to match them up, the ideal tool to use is a vectorscope and a waveform monitor. A color chart with a vectorscope will help you dial in the color, and a waveform will help you set the black levels and the gamma the same. You should be able to set the same basic settings on each as a good starting point, and by all means use MANUAL white balance -- don't rely on the presets. But the color is going to be different, not just because of different chipsets and different processing, but also because the lens itself can add its own influence to the color.

Plus, you're going to have to face the fact that the 500 is going to have more dynamic range -- it's a 2/3" chip and has something on the order of 2 stops' more dynamic range. That's going to make the images look different.

That said, I matched an HVX200 to an HPX500 pretty well up at the Iditarod multi-camera shoot, so it can certainly be done, it just takes time.

Adobe OnLocation is the ideal tool for it; it lets you frame-grab a frame from one camera, overlay the live feed from the other, split-screen it, check the waveform and vectorscope, etc.
Click to expand...
 
For green/purple, use the chroma phase setting; crank one up and the other down and it should get you about there.

I have no idea what the settings were back then, and they wouldn't do you any good anyway as it was an HVX200, not a 170, and I was matching to a prototpye HPX500, not a production model...
 
Tried your suggestion... in this case primary colors get way out of what they're supposed to be... I guess I will just have to take both cams to Germany service center sometime this year and get my hpx500 5600k preset fixed and see what they come up with..

though it's interesting, when i downloaded official panasonic presets for both cameras, for hpx500 - digieng, for hxp170 - align. Both presets description say that it should render colors most accurately to chroma chart and the vectorscope image indicates that colors should be really close, but they aren't...

can this be the case because of that hpx500 i bought in US, and hpx170 in europe? i guess they come out of the same factories, no matter where sold, right?

Here is vectorscope from panasonic scene files which supposed to render accurate colors according to chroma chart.

HPX500: HPX170:
hpx500_digineg_small_2.jpg
hpx170_align_small_2.jpg


Seems identical? what could be the problem ?



Barry_Green said:
For green/purple, use the chroma phase setting; crank one up and the other down and it should get you about there.

I have no idea what the settings were back then, and they wouldn't do you any good anyway as it was an HVX200, not a 170, and I was matching to a prototpye HPX500, not a production model...
Click to expand...
 
First be sure to have the internal battery of the cameras charged, or the White Balance will shift.
Second, as Barry says, because of the different lenses you have different rendering. It is easyer to match two lenses of the same brand. Black is different, Chroma Phase is different.
I also had to match a HPX500 ( the one with a green cast in 5600K preset) and a HVX200.
Same Gamma, same Matrix, White Balance, same frame and same level of ligth (waveform on the monitor).
The Black (Master Ped) was different... Chroma Phase ... but i could get close.
On the set we used the cameras in a 90/120 degre position and there the Chroma Phase could be different. But that was resolved in postproduction.
I was setting the F stop playing A/B on the monitor.
Note: the diagramm Panasonic gives to illustrate the Scene Files is not the diagramm you will get through your lenses, it is just an idea. Best Colin.
 
That's interesting... can power source affect WB ? both cameras were on AC power.

Also , one more idea, if main colors are rendered pretty much exactly the same, why would secondaries could be off ? Trying to even them with phase messes up primaries... :huh:


berkanoztrak said:
First be sure to have the internal battery of the cameras charged, or the White Balance will shift.
Second, as Barry says, because of the different lenses you have different rendering. It is easyer to match two lenses of the same brand. Black is different, Chroma Phase is different.
I also had to match a HPX500 ( the one with a green cast in 5600K preset) and a HVX200.
Same Gamma, same Matrix, White Balance, same frame and same level of ligth (waveform on the monitor).
The Black (Master Ped) was different... Chroma Phase ... but i could get close.
On the set we used the cameras in a 90/120 degre position and there the Chroma Phase could be different. But that was resolved in postproduction.
I was setting the F stop playing A/B on the monitor.
Note: the diagramm Panasonic gives to illustrate the Scene Files is not the diagramm you will get through your lenses, it is just an idea. Best Colin.
Click to expand...
 
Back in the old days/college we had Panasonic WV-777 and WV-555 tube cameras. We would zero out everything on the CCU and then put both cameras up on a split screen through the switcher on the same shot (didn't have a waveform/vectorscope) and THEN start adjusting settings to get them as close as possible. I would rather start at zero / default with a flat image before I started adjusting any settings on either camera - especially dealing in software on newer cameras. That is what I meant by starting at zero.
 
As a place to start, sure. It's just that sometimes people think that because the menus are named the same, if you match the settings you'll match the look, and that's just not the way it works. It is of course reasonable to start there, but you still need to go through the whole charts and scopes and A/B process to get it "right".
 
For the times I have needed to match multiple cams, I have had camera adjustments done by an engineer. I don't think most of us have accurate enough monitors and enough experience to do this ourselves, unless we have an engineering BG.

FWIW, I have done plenty of shoots with just multiple HVX200s and two or three of the HVXs, with identical settings, still tend to render scenes quite differently. It takes someone who is really talented at painting cameras to get them to match or come close. I've never tried matching a 500 and my 170 though. If I needed to, I would take them to Bexel or Band Pro and hire their engineer for an hour or two to build the scene files. Because these cameras don't have as many setting parameters as higher end cameras, it is that much more difficult to truly match them.

Dan
 
thanks for your input, but i let my hands down already... i had both cameras connected to BT-LH2550 monitor via SDI, adjusted them for 3 days in a row, and believe me, i'm no noob in colors , as i have hardware screen calibrators, calibrated computer screens, plasmas. read lots of information on that...

What is most visible is that one camera renders dark colors more greenish (hpx170) - other - with some magenta/red (hpx500). I live in lithuania, so unfortunately i cant take both of them to bexel :) though if i have a chance, i will take them to germany sometime to authorised panasonic center...
 
I don't know if you will ever get them to perfectly match but you should be able to get them close. I would suspect that you can find a good video engineering firm in Germany.

Good luck,

Dan
 
I've used my 170 with my HDX900 on several shoots and was able to get the 170 looking pretty close and developed a scene file for it. I found that Cine D in one camera was closer to Cine V in another, don't remember which was which. Cameras like the 900 or HPX2000-3700 have a lot more handles for matching to the little cameras, such as matrix and color correction menus.

The 170 and 200/200A do not match and need some engineering time, ditto the 500 with the 170.

The DSC Labs Chroma Du Monde chart with a vectorscope is a great way to match any two cameras. Knee should be turned off, gammas matched, scope expanded, cameras A-B'd on same monitor. With these tools, an engineer can get pretty close fairly quickly.
 
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