Manual mode is great, auto mode sucks

B

bgreenstone

Member
I've had my HMC150 for several weeks now, and I've been using it extensively in various conditions, both indoor and outdoors. My conclusion is that it's a great camera as long as you set *everything* to manual. This camera is absolutely awful in any of the Auto modes:

• Auto-Focus: This is the worst auto-focus system I've seen since the late 1980's. It's unbelievably slow and inaccurate. It almost never achieves a sharp focus, even in scenes with very little depth - where everything is in the same focal plane, so there shouldn't be much choice. Also, there's no way to set the focus zone - it just uses the entire image frame and takes an average.

• Auto White Balance: This is the worst auto-white balance I've ever seen. It just plain doesn't work. Other cameras I've worked with have always been pretty close and given usable results, but this one doesn't cut it.

• Auto Iris: Outdoor images especially are always overexposed with the auto-iris on, and by quite a bit.

That all being said, in manual mode it's possible to get fantastic images. I just don't understand why a $3300 camera doesn't even have the basic automatic features of a $600 camera.

Anyone have better experiences with this?

-Brian
 
I have to disagree with some of your points but usually anyone with a $3300 camera will be using manual settings from the get-go. I never used auto WB so I cant comment on that. the auto exposure seems to work fine. I use it as a guide for setting exposure manually with the zebras and WFM.Maybe you have it set to overexpsoe in the settings? also remeber you cant judge exposure by looking at the LCD you need to be using the zebras and WFM. The auto focus will be slower in 24p shooting but I have used the push auto button to get quick focus with no problems.
 
I own the HMC150 and I agree with Brian. Great video, but set your white balance and use manual control. The focus is also a little unaccurate. Recently I videotaped a folk singer a few feet infront of a wall which had artwork on it. The camera wanted to focus on the wall, not the singer. I had to switch to manual focus, then things worked great.

Other than that, the video is juicy and rich in color. Great low-light, too.
 
I just shot a short this weekend and last night loaded all my footage into the time line 135 clips. I did the auto white balance at every new setup to see how it would do.

30 clips -the white balance worked perfectly when I tried to CC them it gave me an angle but no magnitude.
74 clips - minor adjustment very minimally off I could not detect this visibly.
16 clips - visibly off.
15 clips dreadful (Luckily I religiously shoot a white card for every setup, every time.)

good part - I cant remember when I had a camera come up with a perfect white balance

bad part - those 15 shot were ugly if I hadn't shot a white card I would still betrying to get those to look right.

I was using a 35mm adapter so I didnt bother using the focus or the iris.
 
I have never understood why anyone would want to ever use auto features on anything other than a 600 dollar camera. Why let a set of circuits make those choices for you. It's also a part of having a professional camera. Tell me the last time you saw any professional camera above and beyond this that even has auto settings. One thing goes in front of your lens and bingo.. there goes your focus and AWB will change during the shot even if it's set correctly.

It's on par with the HVX, EX1 and other cameras in the same league. It's NOT DV.. that has so much latitude and you can be off in terms of almost everything and theres forgiveness in the image and camera. This camera, like most others, requires a certain skillset....
 
You realize that there isn't even auto-focus at all on higher end cameras (HPX-300 and above) right? I have never used either the Auto-Focus or the Auto-Iris on my HMC150, and only occasionally use the Preset White Balance (not the ATW).

Never, EVER trust the auto anything on any camera. It will never be as good as manual... unless you are using a $600 camera, but only because the manual features on those suck. You should never put yourself at the mercy of a computer chip to make judgment calls on artistic decisions like what to focus on and and the color temperature you want.
 
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I have found the Auto focus to work pretty well, but I always shoot manually I have been since I started using SLR's. No matter how much the cam cost manual is king that is why it costs more than a 600 camera with a limited auto-mode.
 
As for why anyone would use the Auto features in the first place, yes, I agree that you'd never want that in a studio setting or when the camera is basically stuck on a tripod shooting one fixed scene. However, when you go hand-held and are carrying it around a live event where everything is changing then you really have to use Auto mode. You just cant set a single focus and exposure for those settings, and it's those conditions that I'm having the hardest time using my HMC150.

When I can spent the time to set the manual modes for a specific, predetermined shot, it's great, but for dynamic environments this camera's auto capabilities are horrendous.

I especially love it when the auto-focus starts to go the wrong direction and gets stuck. This happens all the time. It goes completely one direction and never comes out of it until I intervene.

-Brian
 
bgreenstone said:
However, when you go hand-held and are carrying it around a live event where everything is changing then you really have to use Auto mode. You just cant set a single focus and exposure for those settings, and it's those conditions that I'm having the hardest time using my HMC150.


-Brian
Click to expand...

this is where practice and becoming a better camera operator comes into play.
 
matt s. said:
this is where becoming a better camera operator comes into play.
Click to expand...


[soapbox]

Matt is absolutely right. I used to shoot college sports with a "real" camera ($20k+ DVCPro25). There was no manual focus on the camera. I had to keep focus the entire time, I had to ride the iris the entire time, and I had to have an understanding of how white balance worked and use that manually under changing lighting conditions and routinely change it on the fly. And this was shoulder mounted, not on a tripod. Trying to follow a Running Back as he goes on a 75yard run, going in and out of dark shadows from the stadium on a bright sunny day is something I would NEVER have trusted to the auto settings... and this is a $20k camera.

I would be far more likely to trust the auto settings for a static, tripod mounted, studio setting then the dynamic, live event settings you described. Those are the situations where you need to know how to use manual settings.

Bgreenstone, Please don't take this as a knock against you, but constructive criticism. But if I was going to hire a second shooter for an event, and he made the statement that you did, I wouldn't hire him. I don't care what his demo real looked like. The idea that you should use the auto-settings for a dynamic live event tells me that you don't understand how to use a camera.

Like I said, please take this as constructive criticism meant to help you improve. You NEED to learn how to use all manual, all the time (occasionally using the Preset... not Auto... White Balance). Remember, it's a computer chip that is basically guessing at what you want to focus/white balance/iris on based on a set of preset algorithms. If you allow yourself to be at it's mercy, you're exactly that, at it's mercy. You should never be at your tool's mercy.

I've shot sports, I've shot weddings, I've shot concerts, and I shoot church services every week. I never use auto. And it took a lot of work to reach that level. But relying on auto was simply never an option.

Learn to use your tool... don't be at it's mercy.

[/soapbox]
 
The other day we had a outdoor training drill that I was taking part in but wanted it video'd. I turned the HMC over to a friend/co-worker who I knew was careful and responsible. I put it in full auto mode for him.

The footage (composition aside) turned out beautiful. Full auto, while not usually desirable, works quite well under the right circumstances.
 
I only use auto when I'm skateboarding and holding the camera, 'cause really my focus then is on not falling and destroying a 3300 dollar camera!
 
How does one manual white balance? Am I doing it right? I have it set on A and then I just point at something white and hit the button in the front near the focus ring.
 
Autofocus works best in 60i/60p, and worst in 24p. If you're trying to get autofocus to wrok in 24p, well, good luck -- it's going to be slow and inaccurate. That's just the nature of using autofocus with a slow frame rate.

If your autoiris is consistently overexposing, you can use the A.Iris menu item to tell it to bias towards underexposure.
 
Another vote for manual control. However, I think there are some occasions (not many) when auto focus can be useful.

1. When you are using the camera in a non-work context

2. Wedding aisle shot. B&G walking towards you in centre of shot, I will be gradually zooming out at this time and it is essential that I do not shake the camera at all. The focal distance is constantly changing in this situation and it is impossible to continuously adjust the focus accurately without wobbling the camera. The AF will actually give you a better result than is capable manually in this situation.

That's about it. For example, never be tempted to use it for the first dance as it will struggle in low light. Better to set it manually to about 2-3m which should keep everything within the DoF as you move around (and they do).

I can't see any advantage in using AWB in any situation. The presets are handy though.

The iris is easy to adjust in manual so I can't see much point in using auto.
 
Little tip to not worry on focus as much: Disclaimer, it's not fool proof depending on certain situations.

When I run and gunned with my BetacamSP, I tried as much as possible to be wide all the time. Normally, everything is in focus when you're full wide. If the backfocus is well adjusted (as it should always be... unless you have a shitty lens), knock the focus ring to 0m, and everything is perfect for 90% of the situations.

It's the same with my DVX100 (should be the same with the HMC150... my next toy), I set it just above macro (around MF40). So if I run and gun wide all the time, I can leave my focus to that mark, and bingo... I don't have to worry. When zooming is necessary, focus as needed... and go back to MF40 when you're back to full wide.
 
Thomas... bingo. Just make sure the white paper is in the primary light you're actually shooting in. However, if you're in a situation where it's, say a combo of indoor light with light coming in from windows, make sure to balance in the primary light source (directly under an incandescent light or directly in the window), otherwise it might look a little off.

Also, you can use 'B' as well, and it's really handy if you know you're going to be jumping back and forth between two different lighting situations. And a note, if you're using a piece of white paper with black print on it, that is totally okay, as black isn't a color and shouldn't affect the white balance.

Flintstone... another trick I learned was to turn the shutter up (when shooting interlaced) to around 120. Hurts the light a little bit, but allows for a bit of 'cheating' on the focus so that if you're a little off, it's less noticeable. And with sports the higher shutter looks kinda cool (I think).
 
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Indeed! Higher shutter for sports is better, especially for clean freeze frames and clear replays. But a bit taxing at receptions with low light... hehehe ;-)
 
Buying the manhattan was also a good solid purchase since it's lightweight ease of use in conjunction with tekkeon battery. No cords to plug in and set up in about a minute.
 
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