Making the best image I can.

[olindacat]

Just out of curiosity, I took a quick run at the color of the pics you posted. And I'm wondering if maybe better color correction is the first step you need to take, along with renting a video camera with better dynamic range. ( golf courses are notorious for green contamination from all the green light bouncing off the grass )

Did you color correct all of these Dingo? If so, only the first two on two are actual video. How did you correct these? In PS? Noticing a lot of magenta. Geez, was that what In posted? (Scary huh ;-)

I can dodge and bump up shadows and sometimes recover some highlight in a jpg in PS, but in Premiere Pro the D800 video image falls apart fast. I am teaching myself to use Da Vinci. I agree with you my skills in the area of color correction can sure use improvement but when it comes to the harsh light I think the suggested reflectors and increased lattitude may also help. Thanks for your help!

 

[TheDingo]

Did you color correct all of these Dingo?

It was just a quick example using the Jpegs you posted. I did the color correction in my video editor Sony Vegas Pro.

Working from actual footage ( instead of JPEGs ) and using a real color correction package instead of the crude controls in Vegas, you could produce much better results.

The first thing that struck me with the original images you posted was the overall "green wash" from all the reflected green light. If you can eliminate the "green wash" your footage will start to look a lot better.

 

[olindacat]

For simple re-exposure in Davinci you can get away with just using the gamma or gain wheel to bump up or down your exposure. One day when you get fancy you can actually key-frame the value of the wheel, so for example someone's face comes out of shadow and into direct light you could animate the level of exposure as the face transitions from shadow to direct light.

I have got to learn what keying means. Thanks for sharing.

slog isn't too too bad. At first it can just take a while to get a good grade out of it. Also once you create a good LUT to de-SLOG your footage you can save it and re-use it to normalize your footage each and every time before you start your actual grading or color correcting.

It sounds like one more step. So, you off your footage to your machine, you then de-SLOG, then save or render? Then open in Da Vinci and begin the correction? Is this right?

For grading I think the bit-depth (ie. 8-bit vs 10-bit) is going to give you more room in post than the color space (ie. 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2) but if you could have both 10-bit and 422 you'd have the best of all worlds. The Sony F3 which you can get cheap now can shoot 10-bit 422 to an external recorder. The F3 only shoots 8-bit 420 internally to cards but \

Did you own an F3? I shoot a lot of 1080p60 now with the D800 as golf looks great in slomo. Did I read right that the F3 can do 1080p60 out to a recorder?

those beach shots you saw that I did were shot like that (to internal cards in 8-bit 420), if your lighting is good and you use cine gammas or slog you can really get some extra mileage out of the images. On the beach video I used a large overhead diffusion screen and mirror boards to bounce light and act as my fill.

These two are so perfectly lit (and isolated) the ocean almost doesn't even look like it is real (like projected or something). Talk about control... damn!!!)

 

[starcentral]

I have got to learn what keying means. Thanks for sharing.

It sounds like one more step. So, you off your footage to your machine, you then de-SLOG, then save or render? Then open in Da Vinci and begin the correction? Is this right?

Did you own an F3? I shoot a lot of 1080p60 now with the D800 as golf looks great in slomo. Did I read right that the F3 can do 1080p60 out to a recorder?

These two are so perfectly lit (and isolated) the ocean almost doesn't even look like it is real (like projected or something). Talk about control... damn!!!)

"Keying" is what they call it when you replace the background when someone is standing in front of a green or blue screen.

"Key-frame" means you can animate values of your color correction, or exposure adjustments over the duration of your timeline. For example if the camera pans away and you no longer see a bright sky in the background you might "fade out" that mask that you had to reduce the intensity of the sky so it doesn't appear over something else.


slog footage looks like a flat picture profile basically. it is washed out and has very little color when you look at it. Later you have to adjust the contrast, and certain aspects of the image to get it back to "normal".

(slog image on left - graded image on right)

In Davinci your first node might be to de-SLOG your footage. Then the rest of your nodes would concentrate on the areas you need to fix.

If you google around you can probably download some slog shot footage to play around with yourself. I had some F55 shot slog footage somewhere online but need to dig up the link. But for example here is something shot in slog with a few passes in Davinci:

http://vimeo.com/61492088 (warning this is boring to watch)

I shot with the F3 for almost two years then sold it and got the F55 this year. The F3 is seriously an amazing camera and improvement on a DSLR in many ways of course except SIZE. The F3 can only record 8-bit 420 internally to cards. Externally as mentioned it can do 10-bit 422. With an slog paid upgrade it will do 10-bit RGB but even without the paid upgrade it can shoot in slog mode internally or external to recorder. The F3 will shoot 60p internally to cards in 720p mode only. I often blew up 720p to match 1080p (50% blow up) in post and in most cases it is hard to tell, especially depending on the delivery format. You can get 1080p 60p from the F3 but you need a recorder that will hook up with dual link SDI ports, not all recorders can do this.


As for the frame grab I posted, it was a short verse from a rap music video I worked on. The image as a whole has some contrast and shift to blue applied, and a grad applined to the sky in the background but there is absolutely no selective skin exposure adjustments done in post on this scene. It was all done on location with the overhead diffusion panel and home depot reflectors. If you look closely, the sun is over the shoulder and behind the girl on the left. There is a huge diffusion panel in-between them and the sun just out of the frame. You can see the shadow of the girl on the guys red shirt and you can see the shadow of the baseball cap on the guys face and neck where the shirt starts. The single 4x4 reflector is mainly to lift the girl on the left out of shadow.

P.S. that beach frame was shot on the F3 in 8-bit 420 using a cinegamma profile, that's it. No RAW, no slog, just good control on location - which is not always possible to do depending on the project obviously but it proves that if this is only 8-bit 420 then in many cases it can be "good enough". Working with 8-bit 420 on the F3 for almost 2 years I can honestly say there is still some room in post to grade images and if necessary bring up some levels 1 to 2 stops if needed. 8-bit in general has some posterization to it when you pause a single frame and look at it up close but in full motion it looks like some nice light grain.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Back to shooting RAW...

With the OP's D800E how do you 'enable raw video capture'... or are you talking about using an HDMI capture off the camera's 'HDMI monitor feed'?

 

[starcentral]

oh I was talking about RAW from camera like RED, Sony, etc.. sorry for any confusion.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

oh I was talking about RAW from camera like RED, Sony, etc.. sorry for any confusion.

Yeah, I suspected so... the problem with this sort of advice, is that one is limited to the camera one has, not what could be found... I'd 'solve' this problem with an ARRI... but most people, myself included, can not afford such a camera.

At $4-5K even the Canon's and similar are out of my price range... so, in my case, I have to learn what I can do with my D600... and in the OP's case... what can be done with a D800E... as I recall.

In that regard, methods of cutting contrast are in order... if one can hang a net over the subjects in the shot... and we are talking about shooting in Maui (OP mentioned this...), as I recall there were trade winds in many places, and so, using canopies and the like may be problematic. Even big reflectors may be problematic in various situations.
(Of course I could have been there on a 'bad' couple of days...)

I also think post processing with tracking windows can help, but that does mean the OP has to 'work more' for the shots...

 

[starcentral]

Yeah, I suspected so... the problem with this sort of advice, is that one is limited to the camera one has, not what could be found... I'd 'solve' this problem with an ARRI... but most people, myself included, can not afford such a camera.

At $4-5K even the Canon's and similar are out of my price range... so, in my case, I have to learn what I can do with my D600... and in the OP's case... what can be done with a D800E... as I recall.

In that regard, methods of cutting contrast are in order... if one can hang a net over the subjects in the shot... and we are talking about shooting in Maui (OP mentioned this...), as I recall there were trade winds in many places, and so, using canopies and the like may be problematic. Even big reflectors may be problematic in various situations.
(Of course I could have been there on a 'bad' couple of days...)

I also think post processing with tracking windows can help, but that does mean the OP has to 'work more' for the shots...

Hm, you might have taken what I was saying about RAW out of context. In fact what I was saying was that he didn't need RAW and that it was probably overkill when in fact he could just add some lighting with reflectors, etc.. And then I posted a frame grab from something I shot in 8-bit 420 without slog under direct sun to prove that good lighting without hardly any grading in post can work wonders for an image.

Back to shooting RAW - its an animal in terms of data-rates, disk space and computing power needed to work on it and I think in your case maybe overkill for what you need. First I would play around with Davinci on some of your footage and see when you push some shadows 1-2 stops if you feel the quality of image deteriorates more than you would like, etc.. If it does then maybe try shooting your next project in 10-bit 422 and see if its enough to give you the extra room in post that you need. I think you'll find that if you compliment all of this with a bit of lighting on your shoots that you can find a happy medium and hopefully keep your client happy with the kind of quality they have been getting from your still work.

But regardless I completely agree with you. It is possible to learn how to make the most out of whatever equipment you have and in fact I disagree with some of the comments made here that cameras with more dynamic range is part of the solution. More dynamic range inevitably requires more bit-depth so that the "14" stop image can be processed in post to get it back down to a 7 stop range - which most people will be seeing it at anyway. If a face is 3 stops under exposed then it is still 3 stops under exposed with "more" dynamic range. Once you push that in your grade you'll be asking yourself why you didn't control the lighting more when shooting.

At the time I shot that beach scene I wrote about it in a post on my blog called "so you think you need slog". Well it was my way of saying that "well controlled lighting" is all you really need. (schedule, resources and budget permitting).

 

[mail4joeg]

"I have not heard anyone say anything specifically bad about the BMCC, yet I also have the sense (from reading what I can) that it isn't producing that great an image (not to say that I can do much worse). "

I don't know who told you that (or why). The BMCC is the best value on the market today.

movie gallery

I'll take the DR, color and sensor of the BMC over Red Mx.

 

[olindacat]

The F3 is seriously an amazing camera and improvement on a DSLR in many ways of course except SIZE. You can get 1080p 60p from the F3 but you need a recorder that will hook up with dual link SDI ports, not all recorders can do this.

The F5=$20K +. The F3 (used) <$10K. Is the SLOG or the file coming from these two cameras much different? Are they the same sensor? I recall you saying the F5 was the way to go. I am not afraid to send, but would the F3 be a good stepping stone? I see them kitted up (I saw yours too on one thread. Look like a lot of stuff on them. That isn't intimidating. I just hear the image coming off the F3 is flat. ONe person here has one for sale and his example footage shot was kinda sad-looking (almost as bad as mine). Do you know which recorder would have dul link? I have written two two sellers here who have a Samaurai and a Pix220. I wonder if these'd do it?

The single 4x4 reflector is mainly to lift the girl on the left out of shadow.

You did it smashingly Dennis! I hear you on the swimming pool effect. We have had that exact problem a lot! Partly why I was contemplating lights. I don't quite understand the stripple concept. I found one thread where it was discussed, along with various glowing white paints, etc. I can't build plywood structures with studs: it is just me and Marie. We move around the location depending on the sun, the course conditions that day. The talent is usually taking a break from giving lessons or something. It is planned out on the spot. Most here would snipe at this but all involved are working themselves to death and not cutting corners out of laziness. It's just the reality of our situation: we aren't funded well enough to have the luxuries real productions have....

 

[olindacat]

With the OP's D800E how do you 'enable raw video capture'... or are you talking about using an HDMI capture off the camera's 'HDMI monitor feed'?

No way to get RAW out of the D800 (that I know of). Best is clean hdmi out 10 bit 422. I am endeavoring to get my hands on a recorder to try it out. I think, however, that by the time I have kitted out the D800 I'll have bought aused F3. So, maybe I can intercut the two, lock down the D800 kind of thing.... or Marie can shoot.

 

[starcentral]

There are crazy deals being offered on the F5, I think $20k gets you F5, hard case, EVF, 32gig card, battery& charger,Canon adapter... but no RAW recorder, that would be extra. Sony USA might even still have 0% financing which is pretty great too. This is a fun read: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?312877-F5-AXS-R5-or-F55

I think you can just rent a RAW recorder for when you really need it. The F5 can only shoot 2k max in-camera to SXS cards using an array of codecs (mpeg, SR codec, XAVC) and if you want to shoot 4k then you have to do it RAW on the external recorder. (The F55 can shoot 4k XAVC internal). The September firmware update for F5/F55 will enable shooting RAW in 2k mode but Sony recently released a pop-in OLPF for when shooting 2k RAW which tells me there might be some aliasing type issues shooting 2k RAW because the image is being derived from a 4k sensor after all. This is NOT a problem when shooting in straight 4k however.

The F5 is a lot of money so you need to make your own business case if its worth it or not. I know from running the F3 for a few years and from several other owners here in the forums that the F3 is GREAT but it ends up getting "franken-rigged" after adding a forward EVF, recorder, batteries for it all, etc.. but for me I was never shooting run and gun so the F3 footprint never really bothered me, I even liked the flip out screen and never used the built-in EVF once. The F5 does all this in one convenient box and so it's hard to put a price on that, but still a $10k difference between a used decked out F3 and new F5 is a tough call.

F3 shoots slog and F5/F55 shoots slog2. In principle they do the same thing but with slog2 Sony placed middle grey (50%) down to about 32% and 90% white down to 58%. (F3 slog places 50% grey at 38 90% up around 68%). I think the best piece I have seen shot with the F3 is this one, just recently posted in the F3/F5/F55 section of this site. It looks amazing and again funny enough they shot slog to internal cards which means it is only 8-bit 420. They had to grade out the slog and then still do some small grading to the footage so it shows if lighting is controlled what can be done. Check it out:

https://vimeo.com/74725218 || Link to DVX thread: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...railer&p=1986363261&viewfull=1#post1986363261

The PIX240i is your best bet for recording dual-link from the Sony F3 in my opinion. It can now also record in RGB 4444 ProRes from the F3 as well. Killer combo.

 

[homestar_kevin]

What kind of ND are you using currently on the Nikon?

 

[starcentral]

No way to get RAW out of the D800 (that I know of). Best is clean hdmi out 10 bit 422. I am endeavoring to get my hands on a recorder to try it out. I think, however, that by the time I have kitted out the D800 I'll have bought aused F3. So, maybe I can intercut the two, lock down the D800 kind of thing.... or Marie can shoot.

Highly doubt the HDMI coming out of the D800 is 10-bit and even if the claim is 10-bit its likely just a 10-bit wrapper to 8-bit video.

 

[olindacat]

Sony USA might even still have 0% financing which is pretty great too. This is a fun read: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?312877-F5-AXS-R5-or-F55

I've been following that thread I have seen the financing offer too. Ends 9/30.

I think you can just rent a RAW recorder for when you really need it.

Like you've said numerous times it isn't the RAW or even the SLOG, or even the 10-bit 422/4. It's the way the thing is set-up. It's funny, bc I know my limitations with regard to what I can get done out there to be 'set-up' on the course, in terms of reflectors and lighting and technique, to a degree. That is: whatever Marie and I can throw on the golf cart, in addition to ourselves and the already bulky camera bag, tripod, audio. We know we can for sure handle the 3/4" foam. I might try to get some kind of Matthews c-stand or something to hold one card, and she can hold another. The possibility of buying perhaps a portable HMI light might be in our cards, as from what I gather here they put out more light with less heat. Maybe something like this might work?

I don't expect a camera to solve anything, but will say my raster experience with RAW has saved me in countless situations. I need to get to press, or to deliver. I don't care of the pros snark at me for shooting my 36mp D800 and digital zooming. I shoot that in DX mode for greater reach, then darn right parlor trick my way to getting shots I don't have glass for, or can't access on foot bc there is a huge ravine in my way. I was reading one thread about the new Arris ENG cam where this guy was sniping at people (like me) who are 'lazy' bc we 'don't plan' our days. Hell, isn't ENG for when the unplanned happens? Aren't good journalists always where the action is, and what, you are going to have a production meeting while the fire is bring and tell the fireman where you want them to stand? How silly . I guess the same holds true for us: we have to roll with the talent often because they have no time to sit around and plan out where they will stand. I am just lucky to have them.

So, when I was shooting 35mm film I could push and pull and bracket. Before good scanners came out I was forced to pay upwards of $100-$200 per drum scan. Photoshop was just getting going and I could only do so much to correct. Nowadays, the tools: camera, RAW workflow, CS, etc., make the job easier and far more efficient. Could I shoot the same shot with my Minolta as I could with my Toya 810? Yes. Is there a difference? Heck yeah. Worth the Hell it took me to set up one shot (often an hour +).

So, I guess I sit here wondering if the tools can help me, and I know in raster they can, and gather from here the same for video but I can already tell Da Vinci is way more complex than Photoshop!

For sure I know I can shoot great video with the D800, but not always when I need it, as its 8b420 sweetspot isn't supported by my technique (meaning Marie and I being able to always light, reflect, etc., as well as I needs). Can I power window track a face to save the shot? I think so. This thread has already done wonders for me in showing me just that!

I may get the MBCC pocket camera and use that for the bad light beauty shots. I may get the F3 to learn a better system and the S-Log workflow. I am sure that camera can run circles around a DSLR, like you said. I will prob take your advice and get the PIX240i dual SDI recorder and an HDMI>SDI adaptor so I can use it with any camera, including the D800. Odds, are, I may just get the recorder for now. Spend the next few months learning Da Vinci, and implementing all that I've learned thus far. The 0% lease deal will always come back, in some form or other.

The F5 does all this in one convenient box and so it's hard to put a price on that, but still a $10k difference between a used decked out F3 and new F5 is a tough call.

It is so hard the camera choice. I remember I had my $ on deposit with a dealer in NYC for the FS100. I waited to hear the reports from the early adopters, of which I was to be one. When I heard about the great low light but highlight issues I bailed. I have been dealing with aging parents (marie and mine) since, so only now are we getting back out there and shooting.

We indirectly make money doing this, as our magazine is dependent on our providing value-added services. The video extends the print medium and gives our sponsors a chance to get 'in front of the camera'. It's an ego thing, but also helpful for the visitor who doesn't know the courses.

We do a silly show as well. We had a friend of ours do our magazine in TV show format to compete with us. They won a Grammy for cinematography in SF! It was so well-done it drove Marie and I back into our holes. Of course, they had a big crew all working for free. I have been here a long time and figured they might have a hard time with their format, as no matter how nice it looks, if people are bored stiff they'll not stick with it. The show is now pretty much gone, adn our crappy little nothing show is hanging on. So, investing in it is something I want to do as I believe it is a good thing, but I also know there is more to it than a given camera or tool. Trying to navigate our limitations and the equipment choices out there is where you have all been so helpful. Thanks a million.

Gotta let me know what you are in La La Land ;-)

 

[olindacat]

What kind of ND are you using currently on the Nikon?

I stack cpls. I have a couple of fader nds too. Mostly to cut light to avoid diffraction, and only rarely. Looking for more not less DOF.

 

[olindacat]

Highly doubt the HDMI coming out of the D800 is 10-bit and even if the claim is 10-bit its likely just a 10-bit wrapper to 8-bit video.

I'm getting mixed messages and certainly am no expert. I got my 10-bit info from this guy, who I read no and then when someone points him out on dpreview.com's forums: http://www.bythom.com/hdmivideo.htm

Then I read it isn't 10 here.

This guy seems to second that opinion (no 10-bit).

I have also written SD about its 240i to confirm. Waiting to hear back.

Odds are: I'm looking at a different cam for harsh light, or us running around with foam panels and boom mic and tripod and, well you get the idea

 

[starcentral]

200w HMI is okay for head shots at not too far a distance and quite common for live news hits like you see on the local news, but with any wide shot and enough distance between you and the subject and a 200w HMI isn't going to do anything at all really.

These things work well for holding reflectors: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/204532-REG/Avenger_I8030CB_Mounting_Stirrup_for_39.html or you can rig up something of your own. Just be sure to use sand bags and secure that reflector good. :huh:

As for being "lazy" I had also posted in that ARRI thread about the use of 4k for padding shots a little wider for "post", or even being able to punch in and get a close-up out of a medium shot and of course I also got the usual backlash of "I plan my shots so I don't have fix it in post". Like you said, its not always about having infinite time to re-shoot until its perfect and sometimes you do just need to cheat a little. I see it as a "tool" not a crutch but to each his own.

The PIX240i is highly recommended and again there is a big thread on the evaluation of the different 10-bit recorders available for the F3, etc..

By the way my mom was a drum scanner operator back in the day when film was laser scanned taped to a high speed rotating glass drum on a machine the size of a compact car. Color adjustments were done with knobs and there was no way to see your adjustments until after you produced a new negative from the original.... ah the good old days. (now replaced by intel processors and cheap software)

Best of luck with whatever you decide, its been fun chiming in on your post.

P.S. I still don't think you will get 10-bit video from HDMI on the D800 or any DSLR but ok let's just hope I'm wrong for your sake.

 

[olindacat]

200w HMI is okay for head shots at not too far a distance and quite common for live news hits like you see on the local news, but with any wide shot and enough distance between you and the subject and a 200w HMI isn't going to do anything at all really.

You've been awesome, Dennis. Thanks, again. OK. NO light then. (Maybe I'll get an on-camera LCD just to prove to myself I am wrong

These things work well for holding reflectors: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/204532-REG/Avenger_I8030CB_Mounting_Stirrup_for_39.html or you can rig up something of your own. Just be sure to use sand bags and secure that reflector good. :huh:

I see it as a "tool" not a crutch but to each his own.

Yeah, I know you were brave enough to call it like it is. That fire went a way tho. NIce cam. If it's under $20 look out. I don't know what I;m doing with an F3 so why not just go for the Arri? (Of course, the lens is what, $38K?)

The PIX240i is highly recommended and again there is a big thread on the evaluation of the different 10-bit recorders available for the F3, etc..

I know. I know that Oddysey Q seems to be very much the one everyone wants. Obviously, you have had a lot of exp with viewfinders and ext monitors. Do you think that is a game changer? I have a terrible time seeing what I am shooting. I bought a hoodman and it is terrible. I want an ext monitor and the combo recorder monitor seems great in theory.... The SD Pix apeals even more bc of the audio. Quite overwhelming.

By the way my mom was a drum scanner operator back in the day when film was laser scanned taped to a high speed rotating glass drum on a machine the size of a compact car. Color adjustments were done with knobs and there was no way to see your adjustments until after you produced a new negative from the original.... ah the good old days. (now replaced by intel processors and cheap software)

My first job, at age 16, was running a Multilit 1250 letterpress. I remember shooting mechanicals, developing plates by hand, setting type on an imagesetter and pasting up, stripping. Images were halftone-engraved onto metal substrates gluded to blocks of wood. To have Photoshop and InDesign doing what it does is amazing. Same with video too, eh? PP and FCP and all the others: light years away from linear days of old, when my dad was making his best TV commercials in NYC....

P.S. I still don't think you will get 10-bit video from HDMI on the D800 or any DSLR but ok let's just hope I'm wrong for your sake.

I'm sure you're right. I'll drill down just the same and confirm.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

200w HMI is okay for head shots at not too far a distance and quite common for live news hits like you see on the local news, but with any wide shot and enough distance between you and the subject and a 200w HMI isn't going to do anything at all really.

These things work well for holding reflectors: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/204532-REG/Avenger_I8030CB_Mounting_Stirrup_for_39.html or you can rig up something of your own. Just be sure to use sand bags and secure that reflector good. :huh:

Here you go...