HPX250: Making a P2 "Library" and the story of how I got nowhere.

T

T.West

New member
So i've come to the DVXuser website as I've been told this is where the best hang out and are possibly the ones who can help me.

I've been tasked by my boss to make a library of sorts from all the old footage of our little TV show. The main requirements are to get rid of all unwanted footage to free up our hard drives to make room for the next season, at the same time I am to keep the best of the footage and make an easy to navigate Library for our editor in the event that we manage to sell our show overseas (somethings can't be aired overseas so we would have to remove parts and fill it out with other footage).

So the problems I have run into would be P2. You can't just take what you want and get out, it's all or nothing. Or so it seems. What I really need is for each clip to be individual, and also be just 1 file. I've tried using P2CMS where it just rips the clip out and I'm left with a strew of folders and an inability to preview what it is I'm looking at.

I've tried Clip Wrap, which when I finally got running had no idea what the P2 footage was and just refused to do anything with it.

So my hopes were left on Adobe Prelude, the program was going to allow me to view, ingest and place my footage where ever I wanted. I was finally set. Until I noticed in the end product the 4 tracks of audio had been condensed into 1. "Thats annoying" I thought, so I went to Media Encoder and changed it to allow 4 tracks of audio. After a couple of tests, changing settings and trolling the internet for answers, the closest I got was 4 tracks, 2 tracks that were left blank and 2 tracks that had everything else jammed into it.

I've spent hours and hours waiting/talking to Adobe about this. They logged onto my computer to have a look, but came up with no answers other than "It shouldn't be doing that". They've asked for me to send them some footage so they can run some tests and get back to me, which i'm waiting on the results for now.

I've looked everywhere, finding nothing except old threads that have long since been deleted, or peoples questions going unanswered.

I'm new to the P2 format with my HPX250, am I doing something wrong? Am I going about this the wrong way? Is there a program I should be using and i've completely missed it? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

My Boss is pushing towards changing cameras if this doesn't work in the long run and I've been hearing a lot about the new Sony PMW200 and am wondering if changing to XDCAM will I run into the same mess?


TL;DR I need to make an easy to use Library out of P2 footage, but I keep coming up short. Any advice?

After weeks and weeks of banging my head against the desk I look a lot like this ->:zombie_smiley:

So thank you for taking the time to have a look, any help would be much appreciated, even if it's just pointing in a direction.

Cheers,
Your friendly neighbourhood Tom.
 
This is a very complex and formlessness dilemma facing many content producers like myself. Have yet to find a unified solution of data mining and asset management. Attending the yearly NAB show will likely to result in answers. Likely only the big networks can initially afford it. Making proxy with full time code data transfer version from the original master seems to be the trend now. It's a matter of finding the ideal format codec. This will be hard as Panasonic will be coming out w/ their own AVC Ultra Long G and Proxy codecs. Apple has their own Pro Res Proxy established since Final Cut Pro 7 era. Probably Panasonic will be platform flexible vs. Apple's Mac only w/ Pro Res Proxy codec.

Most people like to delete unused clip in their favorite NLE app and archive it when the show's all done, saving a bit in space. The problem with this is that sometime you'll want that unused scene. It may be a scene that costed a lot of time and effort. Pristine, original footage is still the safest way.

Sony XDCAM disc is pretty much already an archive medium by itself. The smaller 1/3" & 1/2" cams just can't use it and you'll have to ingest to the XDCAM disc for final archive.

An alternative method of merging and splitting P2 files over the practically impossible to use P2CMS is by using the AG-MSU10. I think the HPX250 can do it also, but haven't really try it as it's a camcorder and not a dedicated offloading device. Here you can copy selected clips (manual selection, marked, or text memo'd clips) to a new S-formatted drive. Once it's copied, go in and delete the original clip on the P2 card. Now you have another official format card on the S- hd partition with all metadata intact but with only the selected clip(s) in it. It's not a fast process at all.

There are P2 plug ins in FCP where you can rexport out to a P2 card format again. But doing this will not retain the metadata including the original TC value as w/ the Panasonic hardware method. However, I noticed Compressor will retain the original TC value as a Quicktime TC track but still no metadata.
 
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I m also looking at this issue. I have found HD Log by Imagine but have not had a chance to test it out yet. Panasonic P2CMS has me confused as all I want to do is have a log of a clip and print out all details including added info. It does not seem to do this and Panasonic don't seem to know how it works! There must be someone who can explain in words of one syllable avoiding repeating the manual's gobbledygook speak?
 
Im in the same boat, Ive spent hours trying to change settings in Prelude and Media encoder, with no luck. Is it really that hard to export video clips with individual audio tracks?

If any one has any advice I'm all ears.
 
Well, I am not sure about just doing P2 footage, however, you could use Final Cut Pro X if you are on a Mac. The program has some very good data management, especially with key word collections, and favorites. In addition, if you set up the imports as camera archives, you can accomplish your goal of archiving the P2 clips. I know some slam FCP X, but take an open-minded approach and I think you may like this feature set.

The guys at Ripple Training have a podcast over at: http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mspencer/story/light-speed_organization/ and you will find that the program would probably do what you are looking to do.

Sincerely,
Bill
 
BillinSC said:
Well, I am not sure about just doing P2 footage, however, you could use Final Cut Pro X if you are on a Mac. The program has some very good data management, especially with key word collections, and favorites. In addition, if you set up the imports as camera archives, you can accomplish your goal of archiving the P2 clips. I know some slam FCP X, but take an open-minded approach and I think you may like this feature set.

The guys at Ripple Training have a podcast over at: http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mspencer/story/light-speed_organization/ and you will find that the program would probably do what you are looking to do.

Sincerely,
Bill
Click to expand...


I'm not a big fan of FCP X when it debut last year. But after a year, it's getting practical and I'm using it much more now. The only big gripe about this now is that the Events folders pretty much can only be shared via Fibre Channel Protocol and not regular network like TCP/IP and AFP. This means you have to buy their expensive XSan product in order to really share it over the network. Nevertheless it's a great concept to separate Events and Prj so that all of the metadata can be separate and archived in the long term. In many ways it reminded me of the now defunct Final Cut Server. Asset management is crippled if it's limited only to local partition hd. Extremely hard to work efficiently in a collaborative environment. But hopefully within 1-2 years they open up more features.
 
Just being the devils advocate here; compared to picking through everything to reduce he space, I am guessing by the time someone pays labor to do the picking, you could buy the drives.

As was mentioned previously, p2 is probably not really the format to keep your archives. If you are going to cut them up anyway, why not use your codec of choice and archive directly from your editor?

This isn't really the cameras problem is it?

Grant
 
Unless you're 100% committed to a single computer platform in the next 4-10 years, I guess it's OK to use that particular codec of choice. But what if the company's wanted on both during that period?

I have yet to see another 3rd party PC and Mac codec beside Avid's DNxHD codec that can work on both platforms and has 8 and 10-bit versions. Most 3rd party app like Raylight for example will just make a .MOV container and still point to the original P2's .mxf format. Apple's Pro Res codecs are nice, but Mac only of course.

I frequently farm out editing jobs and find that the original, native P2 format works best because of no need to do any additional time consuming codec conversion + 2x the storage. It's dual platform compatible in the end. Pretty much most major editing apps support direct P2 - AVC Intra in realtime (Premiere CS6 for example) and retain full metadata. FCP X may take another year or so.
 
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Just seen that a company called Axlevideo.com is bringing out a new logging/archive software system at IBC. Will be sending them various files to see if it could be useful.
www.axlevideo.com
 
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First of all I would get an .MXF viewer software which allows you to look at single clips of P2 format files without converting to anything. There are several free versions available for mac and pc. This way you can store the P2 format files and remain free of converted files which might not load into future NLE´s.
Second I would buy hard drives instead of making space on old ones.
Third I would look into solutions like this axle company. Most post pro houses that I know and work with are avid based and have similar server systems where each editing suite can connect to.
I work with FCP and learned to ingest my P2 files with names and running numbers in order of which shot was first, so my resulting prores files are named "interview mr.x1-2-3-4 " and so forth.
Sony´s disk based storage has a major advantage since the original files can be stored easily. No idea how long they last but for now its the preferred solution.
Maybe Panasonic comes up with a solution?
 
Neil I can see you from my office window!

I want a system that can log and archive P2-MXF/ EX-MXF/ XDCam50mbits UDF MXF/Nano MXF. Will be having a meeting with Axle in London after IBC.
 
And I can see the dark storm clouds over Mordor from here ;)

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with Axle. I've registered with them so look forward to seeing what they come out with.
 
lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com said:
Unless you're 100% committed to a single computer platform in the next 4-10 years, I guess it's OK to use that particular codec of choice. But what if the company's wanted on both during that period?

I have yet to see another 3rd party PC and Mac codec beside Avid's DNxHD codec that can work on both platforms and has 8 and 10-bit versions. Most 3rd party app like Raylight for example will just make a .MOV container and still point to the original P2's .mxf format. Apple's Pro Res codecs are nice, but Mac only of course.

I frequently farm out editing jobs and find that the original, native P2 format works best because of no need to do any additional time consuming codec conversion + 2x the storage. It's dual platform compatible in the end. Pretty much most major editing apps support direct P2 - AVC Intra in realtime (Premiere CS6 for example) and retain full metadata. FCP X may take another year or so.
Click to expand...

So you think that prores might go away and that any editor worth a hill of beans can't deal with prores files? Seem like this is a gripe without an argument.

Grant
 
Pro Res is a Mac-only platform codec. In the real world, not all editors are on the Mac platform due to higher cost and personal preference. If there's an editor who's has a more affordable rate, just as talented and is PC only, I'd have to subcontract that one out. It's business and the $ matters. This is where I prefer to keep native cam format, especially Panasonic P2 DVCP HD, AVC Intra, Ultra codecs that has very strong support from virtually all major NLE apps.

After experiencing sudden drop in Apple's Xserve hardware, Final Cut Server asset management app, Color, MBP 17", etc... I feel safer sticking w/ the original camera format. Although I do have to admit they still keep their 1990s Cinepak for CD-ROM. So it may be an exception to codec of not being dropped. But I wouldn't 100% count on Apple's commitment to their own product.
 
The point is that even if you need something else for your editor du-jour, even if using windoz, prores will not be difficult to deal with. What you need is a reliable format to archive to and prores is pretty universally known and accepted. Another codec could be used also. Compare this to storage in the native codecs, which at this point are changing faster than editing codecs. Capture codecs are rarely used for editing excepts for maybe the news.

Side note: considering how Avid is bleeding red and shrinking by the year, do you feel more comfortable hitching up to Avids wagon more than Apple?

Grant

Edited for grammar....I hate the new spell checkers!
 
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As a personal preference, there's something special about preserving the camera original. RedCode RAW camera format is a special situation where it's ideal to keep the camera original vs an intermediate if there's ever a need to do anything all over in the next decade or so. Kind of like not throwing away the film negative in many ways. On the other side of this, w/ h.264 on DSLR, it's extremely small in file size and pretty much these days many NLE apps such as FCP X can handle it natively well - providing it's on a 8-12 core Mac Pro. HDs are getting cheaper every year. It's not a cost prohibitive thing to archive cam original in 2012 vs in 2000. For me I archive both camera originals and the converted intermediate Pro Res files and be done w/ it. I have all possible workflow scenarios covered.

I'm not into Avid to begin with. My general practice is to stick to something that's widely used so that the cost will be lower overall but not sacrificing too much quality and flexibility.
 
IIRC, Panasonic's P2CMS has the capability to sort through P2 directories, preview and select P2 clips, and either export the preferred clips (to whatever directory) or delete the unwanted clips, along with adding, searching, and reading metadata. I haven't used it extensively because I just .mov rewrap everything prior to edit, but maybe it's worth looking into.
 
lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com said:
I have yet to see another 3rd party PC and Mac codec beside Avid's DNxHD codec that can work on both platforms and has 8 and 10-bit versions.
Click to expand...

If you don't mind having everything stored in 10-bit color-space, Cineform's CODEC works great on both PCs and Macs. I first started using Cineform on a project where I had to share video files between my Sony Vegas Pro and a Final Cut Pro editor. The Cineform format can be opened/saved natively on both platforms.

Cineform NEO SCENE Info

CineForm NeoScene for PC and Mac : $100 from VideoGuys.com
 
I would take a look at software that will allow you to search by the metadata and retrieve clips from an archive. The one that comes to mind is from Imagine Products. They can attach this to a LTO where your footage would reside. They have a number of versions depending on how large your archive is. And I think it can be scaled into.

Best,

Jan

For more info on what Metadata is see here: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/panasonic/drivers/PBTS/papers/P2HDMetadata.pdf
 
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