Magic Lantern enables 14-bit RAW CinemaDNG on 5D

Kholi said:
So we basically agree, there's aliasing. Cosimo said he's not seeing any, I said it's there.

Where's the discrepancy? I must've missed it yet again =T

Also, I'd be interested if you could tell the difference between Alexa and another camera if they were 50/50 on the same project, on the web (which is where most people here have ingested Alexa footage, not RAW personally shot material). Care to take the challenge?

As much as I harp about mixing cameras, let's be realistic... all things considered equal, most of us couldn't tell.
Click to expand...

Don't play games with me Kholi, we've both used and tested a lot of cameras and I think this is one of the better ones. You know I'm not a fanboy, my MK3 was on ebay a week before the raw announcement because it wasn't up to scratch for my film, things have changed. I think it's gonna get a lot of Alexa and 35mm b-roll work because yeah most people won't be able to tell. Low key scenes are crucial to my storytelling and not many cameras can shoot those scenes well, this one can. The FPN is about the only thing I don't like about this camera but I can denoise and add grain to mask it and the resolution doesn't take a big hit.
 
I think some of the excitement is boiling to hyperbole with this camera. Is it a really nice image? Yep. Does it look miles beyond other good camera footage. Nope. The fact that it looks so much better than regular 5DMK3 footage is causing delusions of grandeur.
 
pulpfiction007 said:
I think some of the excitement is boiling to hyperbole with this camera. Is it a really nice image? Yep. Does it look miles beyond other good camera footage. Nope. The fact that it looks so much better than regular 5DMK3 footage is causing delusions of grandeur.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, it is the dream of the ages! Raw images at movie speed in a small, reliable package. No, the excitement is justified for those of use who have pined for this and fear not the many terabytes needed to feed the beast.
 
Kholi, would you mind showing a bit of the aliasing on the Mk3 raw vids? I've seen it all over the Mkii stuff, but am just not seeing it in the newer hacked camera. Are we even talking about the same thing? A screen grab or something would help. Thanks.

EDIT: I see it in this vid but haven't in others. More examples? Wondering is the setup (ratio of sensor, post workflow, etc) affect this?

EDIT 2: I'm no fanboy, by the way. I have no Mk3 (still have an old Mkii kicking around, now mostly used for stills), and have NOT cancelled my BM pocket cinema camera. Just callin em as I see em.

Kholi said:
I've seen aliasing in every video, it becomes more apparent the more sharpening's applied and people are going overboard. Chroma MOire no, but there's aliasing. Not every hard to spot.

https://vimeo.com/66228674
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Cosimo Bullo said:
With all due respect, it is the dream of the ages! Raw images at movie speed in a small, reliable package. No, the excitement is justified for those of use who have pined for this and fear not the many terabytes needed to feed the beast.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's not amazing...esp for all the MK3 owners out there...it is! But, what I am saying is that other cameras are actually amazing as well, despite the hype. If this was posted as MK3 raw footage for example, people would be freaking out how good it is as well. (if people are honest with themselves.)

http://vimeo.com/62959319
 
I agree with you, 100%. Or this: https://vimeo.com/58045466 . I think the thing people are so excited about is that we now have an equal potential level of quality in a full frame camera with freaking CF cards! It's a b-roll gathering monster, nothing short of miraculous. And I believe as well that part of this is just relief that finally this camera, the heralded Mk 3, is putting out images we KNEW it must have been capable of when the piece of s*#t was released last year. I like many may now pick one up, but not at the expense of the pocket cinema cam, a machine I think may change the game even more than this revelation.

pulpfiction007 said:
I'm not saying it's not amazing...esp for all the MK3 owners out there...it is! But, what I am saying is that other cameras are actually amazing as well, despite the hype. If this was posted as MK3 raw footage for example, people would be freaking out how good it is as well. (if people are honest with themselves.)

http://vimeo.com/62959319
Click to expand...
 
The only reason there would be aliasing in the MK3 RAW is because people are over sharpening it. I see Zero aliasing except from pure white lines against a darker background which 90% of digital cameras do. Squig, forget arguing and just post updates to your findings. If some people don't like the hack, let them eat cake or extreme color moire in their footage....
 
Cosimo Bullo said:
Kholi, would you mind showing a bit of the aliasing on the Mk3 raw vids? I've seen it all over the Mkii stuff, but am just not seeing it in the newer hacked camera. Are we even talking about the same thing? A screen grab or something would help. Thanks.

EDIT: I see it in this vid but haven't in others. More examples? Wondering is the setup (ratio of sensor, post workflow, etc) affect this?
Click to expand...

Sharpening would exaggerated it, and unless I'm just too far gone in the world of vidya gayms these days, I don't think aliasing appears out of thin air just because you sharpen an image. Pixels become more visible, if you find aliasing becoming more apparent when sharpening, it's likely that it's always there. I'm probably wrong though, so anyone feel free to set me straight one good time.

I think James Miller's video is a good example of not overdoing the sharpness from what I can remember. You can only spot the moire and aliasing in specific situations, most of which are not offensive to be honest. From memory, there's a shot where there are kids riding bikes through the frame, left side's gravel, moire and aliasing there and then there's some scattered over the beach shots.

If you go back to that Blackmagic and 5D3Raw "comparison", the end of the reel with the guy wielding the shinai, his garment's riddled with aliasing in the 5D3 shot, and in the BV1 shot it's aliasing AND moire. Much more offensive.

It's not distracting, my point was that it's there regardless of if one can see it or not, but it's likely not a big deal. I've seen far worse. But it's there.

Sorry for typos: took me several minutes to compose this post while playing fighting game.
 
The ML raw hack is awesome because it gave people already owning the canon cameras (which there are a lot) a "free raw camera" without spending 3 thousand dollars. A lot of shooters don't want to deal with raw for an entire production, its just another tool in your kit, like high frame rate on other cameras, it's not gonna be slo mo all throughout, its just another feature that you can use for tricky lighting or exposure situations.

The ML raw hack is awesome because, it was never given by the original camera maker, and that talented programmers knew the product was capable of so much more cracked the code and gave us this feature.
The camera maker gave us, year after year of frustrating incremental features on tiered product lines! The ML team called their BS and unlocked the features denied the consumers, (it might have been intentional or not), the masses cheered.

The ML raw hack is awesome because for Canon, they could have locked it down but they did not. I believe they allowed this to continue to create an almost cult like following for their products without them spending millions in marketing. Its a win win situation for them.

The ML raw hack is awesome because it is a software development in progress by a huge community, now programmers are coming in creating bat file instruction sets to automate dng extraction process, hardware people are suggesting CF to ssd solutions.
We are involved in the testing of nightly builds to confirm what is and whats not possible.

And of course, it is awesome because even Red owners over at reduser.net acknowledge that visually the image produced by the ML raw hack is, well, let just say, "very good."

Its not perfect, but hey, it's free. :) Cheers to us pixelpeepers.
 
dustylense said:
Squig, forget arguing and just post updates to your findings. If some people don't like the hack, let them eat cake or extreme color moire in their footage....
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm done, I'm not here to sell cameras. I just tested todays build, friggin' awesome! There's a 6MB/s speed bump shooting 24p 1880x1280 @ 96.3MB/s and a 16MB/s speed bump shooting 60p! I can shoot 1440x540 60p till the card fills up. Thats 2052x840 stretched anamorphic! I had the body cap on but I'm gonna shoot a real test later. So cool. I'll post some 60p and ISO tests tomorrow.
 
Just to be 100% clear, I never said I don't like the hack. For the 10th time, it's sweet! But why do people have to call other cameras utter garbage to make their point that they like their own camera. Each camera has it's down falls, it's highs and lows...

1.The BMC has moire problem. It has a more expensive battery solution. Some people have dropped frames with certain SSDs. Big workflow in raw.
2. The Mk3 has a clip time limit problem. It has a very expensive and rigorous work flow. It has no audio solution on board.
3. The C100 is limited by codec, needs an external recorder for the absolute best footage, and is still 8 bit.

The highs with each camera are plain as day with a little trip to Vimeo and a good hard look at the features.

Every single one of them is a viable choice, even if none are the unanimous choice.
 
Last edited:
pulpfiction007 said:
Just to be 100% clear, I never said I don't like the hack. For the 10th time, it's sweet! But why do people have to call other cameras utter garbage to make their point that they like their own camera. Each camera has it's down falls, it's highs and lows...

1.The BMC has moire problem. It has a more expensive battery solution. Some people have dropped frames with certain SSDs. Big workflow in raw.
2. The Mk3 has a clip time limit problem. It has a very expensive and rigorous work flow. It has no audio solution on board. (Has no clip limit at all... just format in exFat and you can go forevere... Audio issues are being solved through recording wav files on the SD card bay. Not sure if it's available yet)
3. The C100 is limited by codec, needs an external recorder for the absolute best footage, and is still 8 bit.

Every single one of them is a viable choice, even if none are the unanimous choice.
Click to expand...

See green text.
 
To me as a 5D owner, and one who understands that todays standards in hardware and software will be tomorrows inferiors, I'm severely happy about this development.

Who cares about workflow... you could get a pretty damn decent workstation for NO money at all ( in relative terms... but I spent 3500 dollars on my MBP. I could get a desktop computer that is twice or trice as powerful for the same or little more).
I imagine that quick turn arounds with Canon raw will even be possible in a matter of months. So why all this talk again? This is like hearing the same ol shishkabob we heard when HD arrived and now when 4K is arriving "ohh... it's too much trouble" "Ohh, my hardware can't cope with it...".... just upgrade. It costs money to make money.

And exciting to see Andrew Reid put out the Isco shots. I haven't seen the downloaded file yet, but it looks promising.
 
Audio recording with raw video is also available on the MKII.

The entire build is being worked on everyday by different developers. Right now, on the mkII it has an offset delay of 2 frames for 24p, 4 frames on 30p.
Nudging it on the timeline puts it back in sync.

The mkII records wav file also on the CF card with the same file name as the *.raw file.
 
squig said:
Who's calling cameras garbage? They all have their uses.
Click to expand...

Go back through the thread...references to other cameras looking "vidoey", having terrible this or that....it's there. And the funny thing is...Joe at D Bolex said the MK3 footage looks videoey, I was like WHAT? lol. That's the one insult people love to throw at cams they don't like..."It looks like video!" It's been used on everything from Red, to the C100, to the GH3. And now I even heard it about the MK3. He was showing his bias with that one...it is definitely a "filmic" look if I've ever seen it.

It's all good, I'm glad you have your feature cam...it's an incredible development, it's just not for everyone. I read a sobering post about a guy doing a feature Raw on a BMC, he said it was an intense process and for his next one he's going pro res. The image pay off is certainly a great thing for those that can find a nice balanced work flow.
 
legrevedotcom said:
To me as a 5D owner, and one who understands that todays standards in hardware and software will be tomorrows inferiors, I'm severely happy about this development.

Who cares about workflow... you could get a pretty damn decent workstation for NO money at all ( in relative terms... but I spent 3500 dollars on my MBP. I could get a desktop computer that is twice or trice as powerful for the same or little more).
I imagine that quick turn arounds with Canon raw will even be possible in a matter of months. So why all this talk again? This is like hearing the same ol shishkabob we heard when HD arrived and now when 4K is arriving "ohh... it's too much trouble" "Ohh, my hardware can't cope with it...".... just upgrade. It costs money to make money.

And exciting to see Andrew Reid put out the Isco shots. I haven't seen the downloaded file yet, but it looks promising.
Click to expand...

Again, just cause it's for you doesn't mean it's for everyone. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?
A $3500 camera with no ND filters, no decent audio inputs, no working VF, $300 for 12 minutes of footage, will demand a huge amount of time in post, extra masses of storage, and doesn't have the greatest ergonomics is not the camera for all. It's a dream for you and others, great. No need to talk down to people who don't think it's their cup of tea.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top