Magic Lantern enables 14-bit RAW CinemaDNG on 5D
- Thread starter refocusedmedia
- Start date
Samuel H
Major Contributor
Yes, recording the images sustainably at video frame rates is not going to be easy. But the price is huge, so I think it's worth the effort.
Comparisons of RAW stills (downsampled using bicubic) and the live view RAWs that ML is recording (two shots, one at ISO 800 and another at ISO 3200):
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/800_lv.jpg
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/800_st.jpg
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/3200_lv.jpg
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/3200_st.jpg
Graded to match, and expanding the DR as much as possible (bringing up the shadows and bringing down the highlights).
As I said, not quite the same, but a lot closer than what we had previously.
Comparisons of RAW stills (downsampled using bicubic) and the live view RAWs that ML is recording (two shots, one at ISO 800 and another at ISO 3200):
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/800_lv.jpg
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/800_st.jpg
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/3200_lv.jpg
http://www.similaar.com/aarchive/3200_st.jpg
Graded to match, and expanding the DR as much as possible (bringing up the shadows and bringing down the highlights).
As I said, not quite the same, but a lot closer than what we had previously.
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DNGs via HDMI out? I don't know if I'm being pessimistic, but I'm definitely not day dreaming.
Lets say it could happen, though? And now the increased disk space you need to store it is okay for you when it was a "deal breaker" just last week?
I wonder if there are already conspiracy posts about Canon crippling the camera floating around.
squig
Veteran
That was in relation to another camera with a puny sensor, moire, and rolling shutter issues, that you can't even buy, it wasn't just about workflow. Workflow is still an issue but 2k RAW full frame at just under 12 stops is pretty tempting for only the cost of a couple of hard drives and CF cards.
What's your problem Kholi? You sound like a kid who doesn't want the other kids to have the same toys you have. Play nice.
Seriously, Squig, don't be a dick. Especially when you seem not to have an understanding of what's actually going on in this camera that makes people like Kholi and myself skeptical of what can actually result out of this...plus everyone who got a BMCC and ended up not being able to handle the format.
It's already pretty difficult to get uncompressed RAW from the camera (which is easier to do), so how about the more difficult task of compressing it? That seems like it's pushing the effort toward very impossible, and now it's more like "pretty much not going to happen unless there's a miracle."
And, what difference does 2K vs 1080 make? I've always been curious about this one.
Also, MKiii's rated 11.7 stops, You'd likely find 11 usable. Where does 12 come from?
I'm only commenting on:
1. Crazy notion that you're going to get a Full Fledged 24P Stream of DNG images out of an HDMI port.
2. People complaining about storage, when anything that matters will likely cost one way or another.
Now, I know you've got a thing for responding to me even if I'm responding to someone else, but next time just let me know if you're just trolling so that I don't respond and then get tagged for being "a kid that doesn't want others to have the same toys."
You can easily purchase the same toys that I own, they're very cheap as a matter of fact. =] That's the beauty of it.
Yeah, cheaper than the Mark III and just a little more than a used Mark II...oh wait, you have convinced yourself of the need for photographic full frame for some reason. Yeah, that's what you need...not lighting or a decent grade or set design or the myriad of other things, just that super shallow DOF at wide angles. That makes all the difference.
dustylense
Veteran
All it means is that the possibility is there. My forecast.... Canon will implement it themselves on a future HDSlr and probably by next year. If you think for a single second that Canon is not looking at what is happening with the BMC, you're truly kidding yourselves. And anyone fighting this is again truly kidding themselves.
squig
Veteran
Gary MYOFB mate, this is between me and Kholi.
I said just under 12, that would be erm 11.7. Why would it be 11 usable if it's raw like a raw still? You can get 11 with cinestyle.
2k is a big difference if your projecting, that's a few feet of screen.
I never said this was gonna happen, but the lads are trying and it would be very cool if they pulled it off. I just don't get all the negative energy here, maybe it's just me, my job is to make the impossible possible so I appreciate seeing others having a go.
Unless you guys have mad hacking skillz that I'm not aware of you're talking out of your arses about what's a crazy notion and what is or isn't possible.
Yes Kholi I have a thing for you. :kiss:
I said just under 12, that would be erm 11.7. Why would it be 11 usable if it's raw like a raw still? You can get 11 with cinestyle.
2k is a big difference if your projecting, that's a few feet of screen.
I never said this was gonna happen, but the lads are trying and it would be very cool if they pulled it off. I just don't get all the negative energy here, maybe it's just me, my job is to make the impossible possible so I appreciate seeing others having a go.
Unless you guys have mad hacking skillz that I'm not aware of you're talking out of your arses about what's a crazy notion and what is or isn't possible.
Yes Kholi I have a thing for you. :kiss:
I would love to see 11 stops out of a 5D3 using any profile, any method, for video. I've seen a lot of claims, but never a single image that shows 11 solid stops, more like 9.
Although I do suppose we're back to subjectivity or "what you can stand". It would likely not see more than 11 by most standards, but then again this is also just speculation on top of more speculation so I'll drop it.
It would be a slight difference if you were acquiring 4K+ for a 2K DCP.
It likely will not make any justifiable difference over a 1080 to 2K master.
I certainly wasn't being negative, but I *think* if I were personally reading into this development beyond what it actually is, and someone came around and quoted the programmer basically saying "no it's not going to happen" that might feel negative. So, I get it.
Or I think I do?
You're right. I do not hack cameras. So, ask the guys that work on the firmware, then, if you're going to pull a steady 24P DNG Stream out of the HDMI port. If they say "yes" then we should be on the horizon of Canon's passive entry into Sub 25K 4K RAW acquisition. =] And, of course, Sony may want to look into the ML initiative to retool their FS700, it has an HDMI port and was tasked for 4K acquisition from the get-go. Someone's doing something wrong with the hardware update deal.
The more tools the merrier.
When you are paying the operating costs of this forum, then you can say things like this without it being just empty words.
bruceallen
Well-known member
OK... but what's stopping them from sending the data out to that encoder disguised as a video stream?
Let's say the first 5 bytes of the DNG are:
145 150 30 45 128
Then you send over HDMI a video with the first pixel values as 145 150 30 45 128
It will come across as an HDMI video with lots of colored noise.
That's the only problem though: how the heck do you monitor your video?!
You have to have a specially-written piece of software that reads the uncompressed HDMI stream coming into your Blackmagic / AJA card... extracts DNG frames, decodes them and puts them on the screen.
Or some enterprising monitor manufacturer could write a hardware implementation of that algorithm.
Another problem would be if the Magic Lantern could write those pixels to video fast enough. Their pixel draw routines might not be fast enough.
Tough problem but within the realms of possibility. I am doubtful they could hit 24fps though.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Samuel H
Major Contributor
(let's try to forget the previous argument...)
@Bruce:
yes, it is exactly like that
at a minimum, you would have monitoring in the camera's LCD (otherwise it's just pointless)
for external monitoring, if hdmi is the way to bring the RAW out, you're right, the monitor would have to understand how the data is disguised
@Bruce:
yes, it is exactly like that
at a minimum, you would have monitoring in the camera's LCD (otherwise it's just pointless)
for external monitoring, if hdmi is the way to bring the RAW out, you're right, the monitor would have to understand how the data is disguised
Ted Ramasola
Veteran
I look at all this as a "proof of concept" that gives a compelling argument that canon should stop fooling around with its consumers because now we know that it is possible. Give us raw video VERY cheap. 
-let me also add that lets not focus only on this "raw" development as the ML team were also busy making the dslrs record YUV 422 video. Its currently capable only at crop mode 25fps.
-let me also add that lets not focus only on this "raw" development as the ML team were also busy making the dslrs record YUV 422 video. Its currently capable only at crop mode 25fps.
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Ted Ramasola
Veteran
I doubt it too. But it will surely push none canon players to step up to the plate. Like what the Black magic people have done. Or perhaps another player. Even the Chinese players(such as kineraw) would come in aggressively.
The BM pocket camera proves it could be delivered cheaply and in a very small package. The argument that this raw feature is only going to be offered in a tiered and expensive package no longer holds water. BM proves it hardware wise and the magic lantern programmers have proven it can be done software wise by tweaking "old technology and hardware."
This raises the question, how much have manufacturers held back by intentionally or unintentionally dumbing down their products to create a tiered business model?
The BM pocket camera proves it could be delivered cheaply and in a very small package. The argument that this raw feature is only going to be offered in a tiered and expensive package no longer holds water. BM proves it hardware wise and the magic lantern programmers have proven it can be done software wise by tweaking "old technology and hardware."
This raises the question, how much have manufacturers held back by intentionally or unintentionally dumbing down their products to create a tiered business model?
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