Low Light Streaks - Is my camera faulty?

[PappasArts]

But ... guys... it's a 4K sensor, almost full-frame 35mm movie size, and it includes a killer lens, and it's $1500.

That's what keeps me coming back to it.

That's what made me buy it!

.

 

[JamesBenet]

This issue is a big deal breaker I canceled my pre-order and will wait for a fix on this and get the 60D when available. The shortage worked in my benefit as I would now have a banding happy cam which can't and wont do for my needs which require clean images to inter cut with higher end cams.

I remember the HV10 in low light had this all over but that was 3 years back and now this cam seems to have it in bright light too. I'm really dissappointed since I was already going to create a large GH1 kit with FDs and adapters. Loved the 2X crop for macro and Tele and well was willing to put up with 720p only because of the mud but this is too much.

If Pana fixes the bit rate to 24mbit and reduced the banding considerably then of course I'm in, for not it is once again wait and see for newer models. This was a perfect cam on paper, it could still be if they fix the issues.

I say we make this issue a cause and get them to at least come out with some sort of fix, I know we are at the infancy of vDSLRs but banding like this in a 1.5k kit is unacceptable.

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Just wondering: Is it favorably affected by Film Mode settings such as Smooth or Nostalgic? Does it disappear in any of the B&W modes (in other words, does it occur only when recording color video)?

That's a whole lotta testing ... you're talking about (randomly guessing) a dozen different film modes, multiplied by 20 (for each combination of -2 to +2 for the various settings in the film modes) multiplied by 13 (for the different ISO combinations) multiplied by 16 iris settings on the lens. That's almost 50,000 combinations.

And I have to ship the camera out tomorrow morning.

Look, for everyone panicking: the GH1 is not perfect. If it cost $10,000 I would throw it against the wall. For $1500 including this particular lens, it's a steal. ...

Hi Barry: No worries. And sorry, I wasn't expecting you or any person to to test tens of thousands of combinations right this minute, stat! :cheesy:

In a way, I'm one of the GH1's biggest boosters; see:
http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=37701

... but I'm also immensely curious to discover both its strengths and weaknesses. As I believe you and most of us here are, too.

Meanwhile, it seems odd to me that the GH1's noise reduction control doesn't seem to have much affect on the fixed pattern noise/streaks, as if the FPN is happening _after_ NR.

Again, no worries. I worked for many years in technical marketing and tech support, so I'm overly sensitive to "customer-facing" types of issues. Sometimes it's hard for me to get out of that habit/role, and instead just be happy & shoot (video)! Or just be like this guy and feel better after: :badputer:


(We need an animated smilely of a happy video guy!) Oh, here it is: :beer:

;-)

 

[holdingpattern]

On the plus side, I have read about FPN banding issues that other Canon/Nikon DSLRs have had in the past, and the problem was reduced via firmware updates, so there is hope that Panasonic can address this. We are on the bleeding edge of consumer camera's here so perhaps our expectations were a notch too high.


Aside from the lack of live HDMI output (I have no idea what this would take with the GH1 architecture) the other major problems, namely "mud" and "banding" seem to be issues that firmware can address to some extent.

We on the bleeding edge need to be patient, afterall that is why we all pre-ordered this gadget... umm.... right?<br><br>Software development and testing take time, so I think we need to hold out for 6 months before rendering a final judgement on the cam. With the HUGE response panny has gotten over this camera I'm sure they are paying attention to these issues, but fixes take time.

As for me, I've found that I can compensate picking my shots a little more carefully, overexposing when necessary, and I get perfectly adequate results for my purposes. I have no buyer's remorse and remain VERY happy with my purchase.

I have found this forum hugely informative, Thank you everyone for sharing your expertise and insights!

 

[Ozpeter]

When it comes to be able to see the banding in the viewfinder, I can see it there on replay but not on record. On record I actually get some horizontal artifacts but they don't get recorded, fortunately.

 

[GMC]

When it comes to be able to see the banding in the viewfinder, I can see it there on replay but not on record. On record I actually get some horizontal artifacts but they don't get recorded, fortunately.

I am 100% shure that we are talking about fixed pattern noise.
Well, just to add some points to this discussion:

- on my GH1, as mentioned before, when I point it into adark spot you can easily start to see the streaks (horizontally and vertically) on both the viewfinder & LCD - actually pretty shocking what you see.
- The streaks are always (fixed) in the same area (on mine its on the upper right hand quadrant of the picture, where I have two intersecting, VERY pronounced streaks)
- BUT WHEN I PUSH THE RECORD BUTTON (in creative film mode, regardless what film settings you use) and film gets recorded, obviously the LCD / viewfinder shows what gets recorded to the card, as the image changes suddenly and the picture is much less noisy, AND the fixed pattern is completely gone (for almost any light situation - just if you push it as already mentioned above (1600iso, I.-Exposure on, underexposed).

Here comes my point:
- obviously the internal noise reduction algorithm is looking for this fixed pattern noise and tries to eliminate the slight differences in gain on the rows of the sensor (as already mentioned)
- Hence, as my camera seems to have pretty pronounced "raw" FPN, it seems easier for the algorithm to reduce it to a point where I honestly cannot see it - I did some night shooting yesterday at 1600 iso filming the houses (large plain areas of same color) in my neighbourhood with subsequent "pixel peeping".
Very hard to notice it (if any) - It should be easy to identify as on my GH1 its fixed, always in the upper right hand quadrant.

Hence, (a) it can be fixed by software (maybe later Firmware releases help) and (b) it depends on the "raw" FPN, which for shure is different for each and every sensor (within some tolerance of course).

Even if you have it, you learn to know where it is - can be easily corrected by blurring the part of the picture where it is (made even easier by the fact that it is more visible in large parts with the same color).

Nothing to worry about ... By the way whats funny anyway, is that the viewing audience gets fascinated by good shots, dialogues, etc .. but picture quality hardly seems to play a role ... My wife still does not see a difference and can't understand why I exchanged my MiniDV cam with the GH1. Recently I showed a film to some friends, and they said how fascinating the quality of the new GH1 is .. I had to told them I was showing them an older sample still filmed with the old MiniDV Cam.

best regards,

Gunther

 

[pailes]

Dear pailes, could not fix this with my Windows Movie maker:

Yay look how funny you are. I'm not expecting you to understand what my posting was about and I'm not expecting any currently existing image manipulation filter to reduce the banding. I'm thinking about writing a special filter made for exactly this purpose. It is probably possible. Maybe the camera is already reducing the FPN artifacts using a special filter in the firmware and it's simply not good enough. Would be an interesting research topic.

 

[commanderspike]

The first GH1 movie was 'Mud: Revenge of the Codec'. The second GH1 movie has just come out and it's 'Banding: Revenge of CMOS'.

Honestly guys... stop cancelling preorders, get your cam, and go and make something with it.

The thing I learnt from highlighting the mud issue a month back was that yes, it needs fixing and is an unpleasant surprise, but the guys who criticised me for blabbering on about it for too long ended up being right, because no amount of mud or banding can change the fact that you can get some STUNNING footage from this thing. All pieces of technology have their foibles. Even a space shuttle and that costs a lot more. :nads:

 

[commanderspike]

Ok - So I mounted the Gh1 on the tripod, 1600 ISO, 30fps and pointed it out the window into the night scenery. For eight hours. I used the mains, left the camera on, closed the lcd flip out screen. And that's it - no need to press "record" - now I get VISIBLY reduced banding - in the order of like 60-70 percent for the lower ISOs, but for 1600 to 1000 ISO, I'd say about 40 percent.
Of course, your mileage may vary - and thank you all so much for sharing - I hope this helps you.

Tonight I will do this again just before bed... and report back if any improvement

Well I am kinda changing my mind about dismissing the burn in theory now. Incredible stuff. Can anyone else verify this?

What happens when you move the camera off the tripod and shoot a different scene afterwards?

 

[commanderspike]

This issue is a big deal breaker I canceled my pre-order and will wait for a fix on this and get the 60D when available. The shortage worked in my benefit as I would now have a banding happy cam which can't and wont do for my needs which require clean images to inter cut with higher end cams.

I remember the HV10 in low light had this all over but that was 3 years back and now this cam seems to have it in bright light too. I'm really dissappointed since I was already going to create a large GH1 kit with FDs and adapters. Loved the 2X crop for macro and Tele and well was willing to put up with 720p only because of the mud but this is too much.

If Pana fixes the bit rate to 24mbit and reduced the banding considerably then of course I'm in, for not it is once again wait and see for newer models. This was a perfect cam on paper, it could still be if they fix the issues.

I say we make this issue a cause and get them to at least come out with some sort of fix, I know we are at the infancy of vDSLRs but banding like this in a 1.5k kit is unacceptable.

All cameras using CMOS chips have banding in certain circumstances. You could indeed wait for the 60D but that will be CMOS as well. I don't understand this 'cancelling preorders' stuff. I like debating and figuring out these technical issues but the banding for me is much less of an issue than the occasional codec breakup (I notice mud all the time but never banding), and both issues together are much less of an issue than they seem when you get down to use the camera properly.

 

[Ken7]

I'm still amazed by all the surprise centered around low-light banding. I can tell the guys who never used a traditional CMOS-based camcorder.

I also don't understand why so many seem so averse to lights. It's an accepted fact that if you want good video in low light situations, you MUST add light. Experienced lighting guys know how to give the look of 'ambient lighting' by adding lighting that's not very obvious...but it's there.

You want high quality audio you need to go to outboard audio solutions. The same is true in very low light conditions with video...add lighting!

 

[delaney]

If you don't have a full light kit I'd recommend at least have a Light Ring for your camera of choice. I have a DigiSlave 3200 which is amazingly bright and produces almost no shadowing. Its dialable and allows you to only use one side when needed. Plus if its set really low it doesn't light anything but the 'glint in the eye': which is a good thing.

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

If you haven't already seen it, here's a great example of a video in which one might expect to see very objectionable CMOS banding/streaking noise, but actually looks great. There might even be lots of noise in this video, but watching it I didn't notice or care.

This video has huge expanses of flat, dimly lit surfaces, but it looks really nice. Kudos to to the videographer!
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=177555

 

[OPHERBA]

Please don't relate the problem to low light only. People should know it is there in daylight too, at least in the unit I had (unless it was extremely defective).

I must admit that for what ever reason it is less evident in 720/50, but in 1080/25 it is there in "all its glory".

Thanks.

Johnnie

 

[holdingpattern]

Please don't relate the problem to low light only. People should know it is there in daylight too, at least in the unit I had (unless it was extremely defective).

I must admit that for what ever reason it is less evident in 720/50, but in 1080/25 it is there in "all its glory".

Thanks.

Johnnie

To be more precise it is a problem with underexposed video which is just a bit easier to make in low-light situations.

 

[squig]

Has anyone confirmed whether the banding happens in mjpeg mode?

 

[Nighthawk]

Has anyone confirmed whether the banding happens in mjpeg mode?

It does on mine.

 

[AdrianF]

I'm seeing this in m(p)jpeg mode. I shot a little over the last couple of days in this mode and in some of the low light shots it's fairly noticeable. I've not really gone anything more than 640 iso. What's pretty odd is I tried switching between different film modes and in the B&W settings I found extreme macro blocking/mosaic patterns. I wonder if the two are related, I've been seeing this on large solid areas, where there is very slight colour/tone shifts, like bokeh on backgrounds. I expected to see less in mjpeg, because assumed that some of this was as a result of the so called weak codec, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[colna]

Opherba asked me to put my example for the wonderful vertical lines 200 ASA here
So enjoy:

 

[AdrianF]

That looks pretty severe. How about giving us some of your settings?