Low Light Streaks - Is my camera faulty?
- Thread starter nathankw
- Start date
PappasArts
Veteran
WOW, that's unacceptable by any means!
For all you owners out there, document, gather proof and get your cameras to a service center. It's great to have this discussion here, however it needs to at Panasonic too! Bitching about it here is going to help anyone or get this resolved. I would be so in the LA service center with 14x17 print outs of bad frames along with video to prove my case if this was my GH1; that I don't have!
This really sucks, and being that I have a camera on order which I was prematurely charged for and still don't have ( thanks panny-direct ) this is most disturbing.....
Grrrrr!
We need to setup a Blog and twitter for this.. Who wants to start it up. This is the best way to globally go at this!
I also wouldn't blame CMOS fully; I can shoot with the 5DMII at 12,800iso and it doesn't have banding near as bad as this. Let alone 3200ISO on the 5DMII.
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commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Dear pailes, could not fix this with my Windows Movie maker:
All kidding aside, it should not be there in the first place, or at least so severe.
Thanks.
Johnnie
What ISO, shutter speed and aperture. And was it under exposed a few EV?
If you have iExposure turned on... disable it. In certain conditions it exaggerates the natural CMOS banding phenomena.
Usually it is either none existent or very slight, aka 5D MII.
My GH1 with iExposure (under exposed):
My GH1 without iExposure (under exposed):
Anything normally exposed is 100% clean with iExposure turned off:
That's all at ISO 1600, full HD.
I've not had this banding problem effect any of my footage, because I never shoot with iExposure turned on.
It's not really a camera fault - more a side effect of using iExposure whilst forcing the camera to underexposure.
This pushes iExposure into overdrive, amplifying the CMOS sensor so that it goes mad.
Don't be daft and underexpose, then boost the CMOS sensor with an in-camera software trick. It doesn't make sense!
Barry_Green
Moderator
That's a whole lotta testing ... you're talking about (randomly guessing) a dozen different film modes, multiplied by 20 (for each combination of -2 to +2 for the various settings in the film modes) multiplied by 13 (for the different ISO combinations) multiplied by 16 iris settings on the lens. That's almost 50,000 combinations.
And I have to ship the camera out tomorrow morning.
Look, for everyone panicking: the GH1 is not perfect. If it cost $10,000 I would throw it against the wall. For $1500 including this particular lens, it's a steal. I have grown to appreciate it 100x more since I've been doing HMC150 vs. GH1 testing.
I do not like the long-GOP issues, I hate long-GoP under all circumstances. I do not like the CMOS issues, I generally hate CMOS complications (although this sure isn't bad, jello-wise!) And I don't like the FPN (fixed pattern noise). Of all the complaints, I think the FPN is most troublesome to me from a straight image-quality assessment, mainly because I can't find a way to get around it. It reminds me very, very much of the JVC split-screen effect -- it shows up, it ruins shots, but if you know when it happens and you're on the lookout for it, you can usually avoid it.
But I still point out -- this thing is absolutely mind-blowing at its price point.
The GH1 embodies pretty much all the compromises I hated about the early HDV camcorders, but the fact is those opened up HD recording to a whole new market who never could have afforded it, and -- handled properly -- some great footage was done on them.
The GH1 is a 4K sensor recording razor-crisp 1080p footage that will, I wager, rival Red One 3K footage for sharpness, with cinema-style DOF and interchangeable lenses with adapters for every cheap lens ever made, and it does 60P also, and it also has an intraframe 30P mode.
You want better? There are better cameras out there. They cost more. That's the way it is.
You want to grab pitchforks and storm the gates of the company as if it's the enemy? Good luck with that.
As for me, I'm gonna spend my time in a perhaps more productive way, trying to figure out what the issues are and how we can overcome them. If the company responds to a request for a fix, great. If they don't, we'll still have figured out ways around it.
As far as the banding goes, I'm thinking it's showing up in a certain IRE range. I just wish this thing had live output so I could pipe it to a waveform monitor and see if it's just showing up in a certain range. If it is, then the solution (well, the workaround) becomes: try not to have a flat block of image (a white sheet of paper, a fairly flatly-lit face or arm, a white t-shirt, etc) at that IRE level.
Which is the same solution I use for the HVX/HPX series: the noise that shows up is worse at the 10-20 IRE level. So I try to avoid having whole swaths of the image at that IRE level, and guess what -- my images look great! The GH1 looks too good to just give up on, let's instead find out how to work with it.
Unless of course someone doesn't want to do that, in which case I'd like to point out that there's a Canon 5D Mark II or a Nikon D90 or a Pentax whatever-it-is available with your name on it. And yeah, they're all going to have their own sets of issues.
Barry_Green
Moderator
... and while I was typing out that lengthy essay, commanderspike comes in and posts photos to show exactly what I'm talking about.
Learn it, shoot at the right values, and you can minimize the issues. However, it's always going to be there at a certain brightness level in swaths of flat color, I believe. As an example, look at the shadow in the cup in the last picture -- the banding is still there, probably because it's at that certain IRE level that causes the banding to show.
But obviously, just getting proper exposure improved the quality of the photos 10,000%.
Learn it, shoot at the right values, and you can minimize the issues. However, it's always going to be there at a certain brightness level in swaths of flat color, I believe. As an example, look at the shadow in the cup in the last picture -- the banding is still there, probably because it's at that certain IRE level that causes the banding to show.
But obviously, just getting proper exposure improved the quality of the photos 10,000%.
Exactly.
It might be that I haven't done as much low light stuff as you guys with this camera. But I posted awhile back that this phenomena is something I've always seen with CMOS-based camcorders I've owned. It's a vertical streaking that every unit I've owned has displayed.
The bad news is that I honestly don't think there will be any firmware fix for this if it's essentially the same issue that plagues regular camcorders in low light. I'd bet that most of you guys have not owned CMOS-based camcorders or you probably wouldn't have been surprised by this issue.
In the world of videography, the pill you take to cure this ill is LIGHT. If you want quality video, a point is reached where if you don't add light, what you see is what you get.
Have to agree with everything you say, Barry, especially about the FPN issue. Hope you're not thinking I'm ungrateful for the camera and the price point attached with it because in every other aspect I couldn't ask for a better cam but this one issue is the tough one for me. If you have anymore info into the IRE levels being the answer I'd love to hear it as I'm usually comfortable with workarounds. It's obviously not my intention to shoot underexposed footage but that's inherent in night shooting which is what I'm in for soon.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
There isn't a single technology around today that can't be improved in some way.
The same goes, even, for the GH1!
CMOS is the way it is. If you wanna under expose, use ND filters and low ISOs, not closed aperture and high shutter speed which adversely effect the sensor.
Even in stills mode, you get banding if you push the camera too hard. I still recommend keeping iExposure off - it's a good for nothing scoundrel! Let the optics and sensor run free and work their magic.
The same goes, even, for the GH1!
CMOS is the way it is. If you wanna under expose, use ND filters and low ISOs, not closed aperture and high shutter speed which adversely effect the sensor.
Even in stills mode, you get banding if you push the camera too hard. I still recommend keeping iExposure off - it's a good for nothing scoundrel! Let the optics and sensor run free and work their magic.
Thanks to your earlier input one of the first things I ever did was to turn the iExposure off when I got the cam.
Back to the link you provided it was mentioned that chips straight off the factory line were found to be more problematic. In your opinion does the 'burn in' theory hold any water considering what that article was saying?
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Unfortunately not, any more. The burn in theory was simply a misunderstanding on my part, due to not realising I had turned off Intelligent Exposure the day after I got my GH1. Sometimes I also turn off my own Intelligence mode 
Maybe the circuits and amps settle into place due to heat expansion over time, but I really do think the banding is down 25% each down to iExposure & high ISOs and 50% down to under exposure.
Maybe the circuits and amps settle into place due to heat expansion over time, but I really do think the banding is down 25% each down to iExposure & high ISOs and 50% down to under exposure.
Sometimes I also turn off my own Intelligence mode
God, don't I know that one. Thanks for the info and feedback. So it's back to a more elaborate lighting schemes. My DP is going to love me.
Barry_Green
Moderator
No worries at all -- everyone can have their own priorities and that's the reason the free market provides so many choices. I just roll my eyes at the "class action lawsuit" crowd.
Like I said up above, this FPN thing is the one that's annoying me the most too. Well, that and the "monet" effect but I'm wondering if they're not somehow related, so I'm lumping them together until I discover otherwise.
Yep, but the key is to keep an eye on the VF or LCD for streaking. You'll see it if it's there. So look for it. And it typically only seems to affect swaths of flat image; you'll easily see it on a sheet of paper in your shot, you won't see it nearly as noticeably on a field of grass or trees. If the image is "broken up" by lots of detail the streaks get nicely hidden, if the image is largely flat, you'll see it. Shooting a cheap indie film underexposed in a room with white walls might be the "perfect storm" for seeing streaks.
But, again, train your eye to see 'em in the viewfinder and you'll know and have a chance to fix it before you get the footage in the can.
Unfortunately the only "fix" I can offer right now is -- change your exposure. Lift it up a little and you might find the lines disappearing.
I'll keep looking for other potential fixes too, and I hope the combined forces of GH1 owners (few as we may be) will have an eye towards discovering the combinations that reveal the streaks, and the combinations that obscure or hide the streaks, and will make that knowledge known so GH1 shooters can all benefit from the testing and knowledge.
Heh, having now gone looking for it in footage taken for the purpose, I see it. I tried filming towards a dark corner of my room here (my recording studio packed with equipment spitting out interference, however) and doing a very, very slow pan. What I then see it as if the video had been taken through a window which had been slightly streaked vertically when being cleaned - the bands stay put relative to the frame, and the image moves under them.
Personally I wouldn't dream of approaching a service centre on the issue. I'd say it's the way it is. I recall endless debates about similar banding forums related to another DSLR (I now forget which) with people saying it happens, or doesn't, and whether it matters or not, etc.
Some success!!
Some success!!
Ok - So I mounted the Gh1 on the tripod, 1600 ISO, 30fps and pointed it out the window into the night scenery. For eight hours. I used the mains, left the camera on, closed the lcd flip out screen. And that's it - no need to press "record" - now I get VISIBLY reduced banding - in the order of like 60-70 percent for the lower ISOs, but for 1600 to 1000 ISO, I'd say about 40 percent.
Of course, your mileage may vary - and thank you all so much for sharing - I hope this helps you.
Tonight I will do this again just before bed... and report back if any improvement
Some success!!
Ok - So I mounted the Gh1 on the tripod, 1600 ISO, 30fps and pointed it out the window into the night scenery. For eight hours. I used the mains, left the camera on, closed the lcd flip out screen. And that's it - no need to press "record" - now I get VISIBLY reduced banding - in the order of like 60-70 percent for the lower ISOs, but for 1600 to 1000 ISO, I'd say about 40 percent.
Of course, your mileage may vary - and thank you all so much for sharing - I hope this helps you.
Tonight I will do this again just before bed... and report back if any improvement
PappasArts
Veteran
The class actions suit crap is stupid and a wasted approach. As I said; the best approach is to collect all the evidence and images that show the issue. Make Panasonic service dept aware of the issue and just keep in touch with them. Setup a blog to profile the issue to other GH1 owners so they can learn what to do in getting their cameras accessed.
When the 5DMark II came out it had a black spot issue etc. The noise it generated everywhere got Canon to get the ball rolling to rectify the issue. Same thing here. However lawsuits, that's stupid!
Seriously out side of this issue, the GH1 is astonishing for the money. I had a choice between the 5DMII or the GH1. Money was there for either, I paid for the GH1 ( I don't have ), simply because it's a better refined V.1 DVSLR.....
The fact that you Barry, can even mention Red in the same sentence with the GH1 just gives me goosebumps. That says a lot about a little camera at that price!
Barry, when do you suspect you might have a review of the GH1 up?
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Barry_Green
Moderator
I'm not saying it's in the same class as the Red One... remember, I said if it was $10,000 I'd throw it against the wall.
However, I do think the 1080p is probably as sharp as Red's 3K footage downconverted to 1080p, and I am certain it's significantly sharper than Red's 2K.
The codec is not up to par with RedCode, of course.
But ... guys... it's a 4K sensor, almost full-frame 35mm movie size, and it includes a killer lens, and it's $1500.
That's what keeps me coming back to it.
I did a ton of HMC150 vs. GH1 shooting here recently. For sharpness, the GH1 slays the HMC150. For usability the HMC150 is so luxurious, in comparison, that it's silly to even compare. But for DOF and sharpness the GH1 has big advantages. Not to mention small size and less than half the price.
So, it's those reasons that I stay enthralled. I can't wait for one of the major video camera manufacturers to wake up and stuff this sensor/lens combo in a proper video camera body, with all the appropriate connections and controls. That will be a huge amazing product.
Until then, I keep fiddling with the GH1 because I think it's gonna be huge. It does almost everything "right". Changing iris and shutter is no big deal, you have full control over both. It's got plenty of gamma curves and customization options to paint the image six ways from Sunday. It's got nice shallow DOF, and with a 50mm f/1.4 it has exquisite shallow DOF. Yes it's missing a lot of things -- no idea what your focus distance is, no way to monitor audio, no zebras or any indication other than a histogram as to what the mathematical exposure is, no power zoom so no slick zoom shots will be possible, and the big one: no live monitoring.
It ain't perfect.
Yes it's got some streaking. But overall it's so much lower noise than most camcorders, it's something that has to be taken in context. Shoot some video on an HD100 or XHA1 or HVX200, then compare against a GH1 at 400 ISO, and the GH1 is startlingly cleaner. The tradeoff? Some vertical streaking on 2-stop-under-key flat surfaces. In my book that gets filed under "boo hoo, now let's work around it." If it was offered on a professional video camera from the broadcast division I'd be raising holy hell about it, but a comparatively noiseless image that has, instead of a swarm of crawling ants on it, some vertical streaking? Eh, six of one, half dozen of the other, neither is ideal, let's see if we can work around it.
Yes it's got some mud if you whip it around. But y'know what? I took the HMC150 out with its CCDs and its much better codec (which is much better indeed!) and whipped 'em around, and -- once you get a whole bunch of motion blur in the shot, it really doesn't matter all that much. The muddy GH1 stuff doesn't look all that worse than the HMC150's motion-blur stuff. I think we gripe about it on the GH1 because the GH1's image starts out so much sharper than the HMC150 or other 1/3" camcorders' image! So the comparative degradation seems like more, but in fact in actually-usable circumstances it's probably not really any worse than an HDV camera with normal 1/48 shutter. It's just that the GH1 starts from such a sharper position that when it gets mudded down it looks like HD100/HMC150 footage with motion blur and codec degradation combined.
So I'm not sweating the "mud" anymore, in general. I'm still trying to coax adequate detail out of near-flat surfaces (like a seagull's wing, there's lots of tiny feather detail but so far the GH1's just rendering it all as a big mush of gray). But if I can sort out the last few things I'm thinking the GH1 is a big winner.
I'd love to get my hands on an EX1/EX3 for a little while to do some side-by-sides. I'm thinking the GH1 will be every bit as sharp and significantly quieter.
But, then again, the EX1/EX3 do a million things the little GH1 doesn't. It's an SLR (ish) that shoots some occasionally spectacular, occasionally "pretty good" video.
However, I do think the 1080p is probably as sharp as Red's 3K footage downconverted to 1080p, and I am certain it's significantly sharper than Red's 2K.
The codec is not up to par with RedCode, of course.
But ... guys... it's a 4K sensor, almost full-frame 35mm movie size, and it includes a killer lens, and it's $1500.
That's what keeps me coming back to it.
I did a ton of HMC150 vs. GH1 shooting here recently. For sharpness, the GH1 slays the HMC150. For usability the HMC150 is so luxurious, in comparison, that it's silly to even compare. But for DOF and sharpness the GH1 has big advantages. Not to mention small size and less than half the price.
So, it's those reasons that I stay enthralled. I can't wait for one of the major video camera manufacturers to wake up and stuff this sensor/lens combo in a proper video camera body, with all the appropriate connections and controls. That will be a huge amazing product.
Until then, I keep fiddling with the GH1 because I think it's gonna be huge. It does almost everything "right". Changing iris and shutter is no big deal, you have full control over both. It's got plenty of gamma curves and customization options to paint the image six ways from Sunday. It's got nice shallow DOF, and with a 50mm f/1.4 it has exquisite shallow DOF. Yes it's missing a lot of things -- no idea what your focus distance is, no way to monitor audio, no zebras or any indication other than a histogram as to what the mathematical exposure is, no power zoom so no slick zoom shots will be possible, and the big one: no live monitoring.
It ain't perfect.
Yes it's got some streaking. But overall it's so much lower noise than most camcorders, it's something that has to be taken in context. Shoot some video on an HD100 or XHA1 or HVX200, then compare against a GH1 at 400 ISO, and the GH1 is startlingly cleaner. The tradeoff? Some vertical streaking on 2-stop-under-key flat surfaces. In my book that gets filed under "boo hoo, now let's work around it." If it was offered on a professional video camera from the broadcast division I'd be raising holy hell about it, but a comparatively noiseless image that has, instead of a swarm of crawling ants on it, some vertical streaking? Eh, six of one, half dozen of the other, neither is ideal, let's see if we can work around it.
Yes it's got some mud if you whip it around. But y'know what? I took the HMC150 out with its CCDs and its much better codec (which is much better indeed!) and whipped 'em around, and -- once you get a whole bunch of motion blur in the shot, it really doesn't matter all that much. The muddy GH1 stuff doesn't look all that worse than the HMC150's motion-blur stuff. I think we gripe about it on the GH1 because the GH1's image starts out so much sharper than the HMC150 or other 1/3" camcorders' image! So the comparative degradation seems like more, but in fact in actually-usable circumstances it's probably not really any worse than an HDV camera with normal 1/48 shutter. It's just that the GH1 starts from such a sharper position that when it gets mudded down it looks like HD100/HMC150 footage with motion blur and codec degradation combined.
So I'm not sweating the "mud" anymore, in general. I'm still trying to coax adequate detail out of near-flat surfaces (like a seagull's wing, there's lots of tiny feather detail but so far the GH1's just rendering it all as a big mush of gray). But if I can sort out the last few things I'm thinking the GH1 is a big winner.
I'd love to get my hands on an EX1/EX3 for a little while to do some side-by-sides. I'm thinking the GH1 will be every bit as sharp and significantly quieter.
But, then again, the EX1/EX3 do a million things the little GH1 doesn't. It's an SLR (ish) that shoots some occasionally spectacular, occasionally "pretty good" video.
I just tried the same test with a SD5 - which, in a way, cost the same as the GH1 (30% lower price but it's only a 2 megapixel still camera) and if there are bands on it, they're completely submerged in the noise snowstorm. In overall quality terms for such a low light shot, chalk and cheese, and less than two years from one to the other.
Now I can reproduce the problem at will on the GH1 I'll spend some time with settings and see how best to avoid the bands - but I'm personally not that disturbed by them and probably would never have noticed them had the thread here not got me looking really hard.
Now I can reproduce the problem at will on the GH1 I'll spend some time with settings and see how best to avoid the bands - but I'm personally not that disturbed by them and probably would never have noticed them had the thread here not got me looking really hard.
OPHERBA
Well-known member
The camera price point is not relevant to my opinion. We are looking for working tools and not a home video camera, and as such we all searching for cameras we can shoot with confidence and trust.
I wish with all my heart that I could say "this was shot with the GH1" and praise the camera for its ability to preform well in different conditions. Right now this is not the case.
We are all looking for a clean image and agree this issue is the most troublesome of all.
Thank you again all who are taking the time and trying looking for workarounds to avoid the problem.
Johnnie
I wish with all my heart that I could say "this was shot with the GH1" and praise the camera for its ability to preform well in different conditions. Right now this is not the case.
We are all looking for a clean image and agree this issue is the most troublesome of all.
Thank you again all who are taking the time and trying looking for workarounds to avoid the problem.
Johnnie
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