Love
- Thread starter Drew Ott
- Start date
Ok I'll bite. No sarcasm intended at all.
Backstory - a)I lost love in a really ugly way recently b)I trust no one as a result.
That said, I kinda need love to exist. I don't ever want to come off as a 'universy platitudey guy' but I have a hard time saying this objectively.
On one end, if love did exist, things would have to be at least a little different on my end. On the other end, I can sometimes clearly see why love should exist cause I can relate to having felt it before, and kind of know how to translate it to its effects.
This is not 'I believe in love so therefore it exists'
This is more, 'I've felt its effects, on me and on other people, I can identify it when I feel it pretty specifically, so something has to be there'.
I do admit to really wanting it to exist, and conquer all, and everything they taught us as kindergarteners.
For the record, i'm a complete atheist, and don't go for any new age links between science and feeling great/getting the car you want/picturing stuff to make it happen.
Also, I'm very, very sad, it's an underlying thing I'm working very gradually to chip away. Life has been getting better, but a long way to go.
Elaborate on why you ask? I could totally do this.
Backstory - a)I lost love in a really ugly way recently b)I trust no one as a result.
That said, I kinda need love to exist. I don't ever want to come off as a 'universy platitudey guy' but I have a hard time saying this objectively.
On one end, if love did exist, things would have to be at least a little different on my end. On the other end, I can sometimes clearly see why love should exist cause I can relate to having felt it before, and kind of know how to translate it to its effects.
This is not 'I believe in love so therefore it exists'
This is more, 'I've felt its effects, on me and on other people, I can identify it when I feel it pretty specifically, so something has to be there'.
I do admit to really wanting it to exist, and conquer all, and everything they taught us as kindergarteners.
For the record, i'm a complete atheist, and don't go for any new age links between science and feeling great/getting the car you want/picturing stuff to make it happen.
Also, I'm very, very sad, it's an underlying thing I'm working very gradually to chip away. Life has been getting better, but a long way to go.
Elaborate on why you ask? I could totally do this.
DPStewart
Veteran
Oh love exists alright.
It's all over the place.
It can and will rise up within you in different ways and at different times.
Love is a verb. You're supposed to do it. Show it. Feel it. Not just sit around thinking about it.
No two people will love each other in exactly the same way. There are as many different variations on the expression of love as there are people loving.
But people are a difficult species... trust is a *****.
By its very definition, the deeper you love the more you expose yourself to potentially crushing pain. But the only way to avoid the pain is not to love - and that is no solution at all.
It's all over the place.
It can and will rise up within you in different ways and at different times.
Love is a verb. You're supposed to do it. Show it. Feel it. Not just sit around thinking about it.
No two people will love each other in exactly the same way. There are as many different variations on the expression of love as there are people loving.
But people are a difficult species... trust is a *****.
By its very definition, the deeper you love the more you expose yourself to potentially crushing pain. But the only way to avoid the pain is not to love - and that is no solution at all.
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
My hatred for you knows no bounds right now, uga. I think I'd rather be Rick-Roll'd than to watch that Foreigner video.
Well of course it exists. Nora Ephron - hard to tell, it's just a movie world, I kinda doubt it, but who knows. But real love exists, that's totally obvious - as obvious as the fact that you are alive and that the world exists. May as well ask: does the sun exist? Yes, yes it does.
nyvz
Veteran
Love is a big concept that means very different things to different people and describes many different kinds of feelings and relationships. And whether something exists or not is a tough enough question in itself, since the concept of existence is another vast oversimplification of many different ideas. Does existence require evidence in physical matter? Or just human belief? Is love a chemical reaction or an evolving social construct or both?
I would venture to say that with something like love, it cannot exist if you do not believe in it and even commit to it, but it's important to recognize the limitations of the word and the concept as you see it. I think the interesting thing about love is that often a definition of it is built between two people and one person can define it in many different ways through different relationships.
Which love is it you are asking about? For me sustainable love is a lot about shared commitment and openness of communication which is built from shared experience. Many people confuse or conflate love into many different feelings or believe it is magic or something that can happen to a passive individual, but I don't find that to be the case in my limited experience. Then again if you define love in a different way then perhaps that love does exist for you but it may be entirely different from my understanding. For example love at first sight to me seems like a conflation of lust into love.
It's possible real life could be like a Nora Ephron movie but it's highly unlikely depending quite what you mean by that. Those characters like most movie characters usually exist in a world where there is only one worldview, that of the writer/director, and these days it is rare that even two people share the same worldview unless you both have lived in a very small town your whole life with little outside influence.
I would venture to say that with something like love, it cannot exist if you do not believe in it and even commit to it, but it's important to recognize the limitations of the word and the concept as you see it. I think the interesting thing about love is that often a definition of it is built between two people and one person can define it in many different ways through different relationships.
Which love is it you are asking about? For me sustainable love is a lot about shared commitment and openness of communication which is built from shared experience. Many people confuse or conflate love into many different feelings or believe it is magic or something that can happen to a passive individual, but I don't find that to be the case in my limited experience. Then again if you define love in a different way then perhaps that love does exist for you but it may be entirely different from my understanding. For example love at first sight to me seems like a conflation of lust into love.
It's possible real life could be like a Nora Ephron movie but it's highly unlikely depending quite what you mean by that. Those characters like most movie characters usually exist in a world where there is only one worldview, that of the writer/director, and these days it is rare that even two people share the same worldview unless you both have lived in a very small town your whole life with little outside influence.
ZazaCast
Major Contributor
Well said DPStewart!
This is a question that everyone asks themselves at least once during a lifetime....kind of like the "why are we here?" question.
Having lived for over 50 years (and been through some serious stuff in those years), I've asked myself that same question MANY times.
LOVE & TRUST are two completely different things, yes they go hand in hand, but I've found that I can love someone and not trust them at all...and I can trust someone, but not love them.
I have the biggest problem with trust...once you lose that...or never find it in the first place, loving that same person (in a complete way) becomes impossible. (divorce can do that to ya)
Example; I had given up on 'love' and came to the conclusion that I would be alone for the rest of my life....then, out of the blue, I reconnect with a high school crush (turns out she had a crush on me too).
We've been together for just about a year now and things are great. Now if she would just get rid of that husband, we'd be all set! (I kid...I Kid...):huh:
That said, you haven't lived if you haven't felt the deepest, darkest pain...as well as the endless bliss of Love & Trust!
Remember, we come into the world alone...and we leave alone (everyone dies their own death)...just love yourself and love will find you. Life is short, enjoy it!
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
No. "Love" is an ideal, and almost never seen remotely achieving that 'ideal'.
Most Romcoms depict a type of 'love' that last just about as long after the last scene as the credit roll.
Part of the Western concept of "Love" is bound up in the 'romances' of Courtly Love, Unrequited Love, etc. which were popular themes in Medieval literature, but were taken by the rising 'middle class' as ideals. They also reflect an era when marriages were arranged, and there was the 'escapism' of the Romance that 'if things were otherwise, this would be the ideal'.
As it is, romantic inclinations are induced by a series of chemical responses in the brains of the 'love' couple, and like most drug induced states of euphoria, don't last...
Once that state has worn off... it become trench warfare, and eventual death on the part of the parties involved, and in some cases death by non-natural means.
Get a better quality drug, with a longer high. Change dealers. Score better.
Again, change the drug - clearly coming down off a bad drug can be very dire. But it doesn't have to be, especially if you get a longer lasting high.
There are many couples whose love has lasted them a life time - 30, 40, 50, 70 years-until-death-do-us-part. That's a sociologically verifiable fact - not in dispute; how prevalent, I don't know - haven't seen the research. I've been married for 16 years - so far so good, hoping to make it go until the last breath. I'm optimistic... it's possible - I've seen it. Grandparents on my mom's side were an amazing example to me.
But you need to have it in you - the capacity to love. If you don't, there's nothing that can be done about that. If you do, all you need is luck - come across the right person, and off you go. YMMV.
silyn
Well-known member
Love - absolutely it does exist. If you love someone - really love (not just a "chemical reaction") - your unconditional trust goes with it (I know what I'm talking about - not just words). Everybody is capable of love; not everybody is blessed with such chance unfortunately. Ego is the main problem that betrays us.
combatentropy
Veteran
Yes, I believe love exists, as an outside, objective, independently existent reality, apart from whether any of us believes it exists or how well we practice it. But to explain why or describe it in much more detail would take calling in religion, which is forbidden here. If curious, send me a message.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Given the likelihood of divorce, as an indication of the 'death of love'... I'd say 1/2 the people who marry find 'love' life long in that same person... and one can conjecture the reason that some of the rest 'stay married' need not be out of 'love' in any sense but duty, or other reasons...
And as a note, second marriages, have a 'failure rate' greater than first marriages... on the other hand... my father stayed 'till death' with wife number 6... my mother was wife number 2...
Time was that marriage was for social stability more than 'love', and so, there was a great amount of pressure to at least keep up the pretense of being a couple.
Drew Ott
Wish I were banned.
Thank you all for your answers. It's really great to hear that some people are still positive. It's a real accomplishment to make it through many decades of life while retaining optimism and hope about love. It's great to get all kinds of feedback from people who've lived all different types of lives.
I'm not going to tell the details of the personal story of what's going on for me right now, since this is a public forum. But yeah, I'm feeling very much "in love" and trying to sort out in my head if I'm just being naive and delusional or if it's a legitimate feeling that I can trust and act on. This isn't a situation where I have a crush on some girl who isn't interested in me and I'm trying to get her to like me (I've made that mistake before). This is a situation where the feelings are entirely mutual and we know each other well enough to not be delusional about the mutual feelings... but some crazy sh*t would have to happen in order for it work out.
She's not sure if she wants to go through with the crazy sh*t or not, and I really want her to. That's where the Nora Ephron question came in. Do I play it cool? Or do I go all-out romantic and pretend I'm Tom Hanks and try to win her over in some kind of dramatic way.
I'm usually kind of cynical like j1clark@ucsd.edu has been in this thread. But right now I'm really feeling like I need to Tom Hanks this sh*t.
I'm not going to tell the details of the personal story of what's going on for me right now, since this is a public forum. But yeah, I'm feeling very much "in love" and trying to sort out in my head if I'm just being naive and delusional or if it's a legitimate feeling that I can trust and act on. This isn't a situation where I have a crush on some girl who isn't interested in me and I'm trying to get her to like me (I've made that mistake before). This is a situation where the feelings are entirely mutual and we know each other well enough to not be delusional about the mutual feelings... but some crazy sh*t would have to happen in order for it work out.
She's not sure if she wants to go through with the crazy sh*t or not, and I really want her to. That's where the Nora Ephron question came in. Do I play it cool? Or do I go all-out romantic and pretend I'm Tom Hanks and try to win her over in some kind of dramatic way.
I'm usually kind of cynical like j1clark@ucsd.edu has been in this thread. But right now I'm really feeling like I need to Tom Hanks this sh*t.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
Drew- the key to knowing if this is right and true, is resisting the "chemicals" ( serotonin, norepinephrine (adrenaline) and dopamine among others) as best as possible, and use your really big sex organ- your brain.
Talk, talk and talk. Really communicate. Deep stuff, like you have a propensity for. Not shallow stuff like favorite band, movie, food.
The stuff you dream about while half asleep, wonder about alone on a star filled night looking out at the universe.
Look yourself in the mirror and ask some heavy questions.
Get to know each other. REALLY know. I finally did this (as opposed to... quicker approaches) for who I thought was finally the right woman at age 49 and got married, for the first, and only time, at 53.
And one phrase (among many) sums it up best- "she gets me, she really gets me"- (I'm a bit idiosyncratic). We agree on 90+% of music, culture, film, politics, and perhaps most critical, money (VERY important to agree, but not very important for us to have beyond simple comforts. We save more than we spend. We want to go to Paris next year, now more than ever). It ain't perfect (I'm damn sure not), but it's good, solid, real and honest.
Our 10th anniversary of meeting is New Years Day 2016. It's not 30+ years, but we're as solid as ever. And she still makes me smile. Every single day. And I crack her up...
Most of all, don't live an Ephron script, and don't play Hanks. Be Drew Ott. you deserve a woman who wants Drew Ott. You just have to find her and be as sure as you can that she is it.
Romance is nice, really nice. I give my wife flowers every week, but my biggest gift is me and my unconditional love.
But it takes Work, Compromise, Comunication, and Respect.
Well, that's my sharing for the next few years...
-Chuck
Talk, talk and talk. Really communicate. Deep stuff, like you have a propensity for. Not shallow stuff like favorite band, movie, food.
The stuff you dream about while half asleep, wonder about alone on a star filled night looking out at the universe.
Look yourself in the mirror and ask some heavy questions.
Get to know each other. REALLY know. I finally did this (as opposed to... quicker approaches) for who I thought was finally the right woman at age 49 and got married, for the first, and only time, at 53.
And one phrase (among many) sums it up best- "she gets me, she really gets me"- (I'm a bit idiosyncratic). We agree on 90+% of music, culture, film, politics, and perhaps most critical, money (VERY important to agree, but not very important for us to have beyond simple comforts. We save more than we spend. We want to go to Paris next year, now more than ever). It ain't perfect (I'm damn sure not), but it's good, solid, real and honest.
Our 10th anniversary of meeting is New Years Day 2016. It's not 30+ years, but we're as solid as ever. And she still makes me smile. Every single day. And I crack her up...
Most of all, don't live an Ephron script, and don't play Hanks. Be Drew Ott. you deserve a woman who wants Drew Ott. You just have to find her and be as sure as you can that she is it.
Romance is nice, really nice. I give my wife flowers every week, but my biggest gift is me and my unconditional love.
But it takes Work, Compromise, Comunication, and Respect.
Well, that's my sharing for the next few years...
-Chuck
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HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
Love is when your wife sleeps in a chair in your hospital room while you're recovering from your third cancer surgery in 10 months. When she takes time off of work to sit with you while you get injected with chemo. She takes a leave of absence when you've dropped to 130 lbs and need constant care. She almost has a panic attack waiting for the doctor to tell me that my CT scan says there are no signs of cancer left.
Love truly exists and I've been lucky to be with her for 13 years. Thank you, Allison!
Love truly exists and I've been lucky to be with her for 13 years. Thank you, Allison!
Holy Moses, HorseFilms - that's inspiring! And congratulations on recovering your health. I've had my own cancer situation, and now 3 years and 9 months after being declared cancer-free, I'm still cancer-free (knock on wood). And yes, my wife was with me along the whole trip - and taking care of post surgery care when my hands were not steady enough... for weeks and weeks. Truly a blessing. Don't let anyone ever tell you love does not exist, or is only some cynical mix of brain chemicals just waiting to disappear. To the OP: the other poster had it right - forget the Tom Hanks routine... be yourself, that way she'll fall in love with the real you, not a false image you present - imagine if she falls in love with the false image, you'd have to play a role for the rest of your life, and who wants to do that; and if she can't fall in love with the real you, then it's better to find that out now, rather than through a divorce years later.