Love Panna but not down with P2
- Thread starter Nathyn
- Start date
braw
Well-known member
Editor321 said:
I guess I should have pointed out what I thought was obvious sarcasm.
My point was that by your reasoning, since these guys are using cameras that are older than a year, they're outdated and "dinosaurs". Sin City looked good to me. The trailors for Star Wars looks pretty good as well.
1080i and 720p are what they are, and they look awesome. Nothing in this world is difinitively future proofed, but some have more of a chance for longevity than others. the HVX seems to have covered more bases than the Z1 or the HD100U.
braw
Well-known member
Also, Editor...by your logic, the Z1's day in the sun was up in February of this year. Might as well move on from that.
I feel terrible for the folks pumping out great stuff on the DVX which should have technically been burried years ago. It's obviously too outdated and inferior for anything useful.
Just to protect myself here....that was all heavily sarcastic.
I feel terrible for the folks pumping out great stuff on the DVX which should have technically been burried years ago. It's obviously too outdated and inferior for anything useful.
Just to protect myself here....that was all heavily sarcastic.
braw,
Here are the options as I seem them: please aid me in my mis-perceptions.
The Cameras
HVX
HD100
My perception is that I do believe that the HVX100 will have a better picture quality. But If I asked the general population if they actually noticed a difference in quality... they probably will not.
Is an executive producer or distributor going to reject my movie shot on HDV and love it on the HVX?? Same film, but different reactions because of the different formats.
To me, the format is more of a toss up than known costs.
Camera Capacities:
3 pack of minidv (3hours) = $24 bucks
3 p2 cards (24 min) =$5,100
Not to mention indirect costs such as downtime, swapping and downloading etc for P2.
Just the way I see it in my limited thinking.
Is it wrong of me to say that Ill take my chances on the look of the production which in my opinion is not going to be that noticeable by the average observer.
Here are the options as I seem them: please aid me in my mis-perceptions.
The Cameras
HVX
HD100
My perception is that I do believe that the HVX100 will have a better picture quality. But If I asked the general population if they actually noticed a difference in quality... they probably will not.
Is an executive producer or distributor going to reject my movie shot on HDV and love it on the HVX?? Same film, but different reactions because of the different formats.
To me, the format is more of a toss up than known costs.
Camera Capacities:
3 pack of minidv (3hours) = $24 bucks
3 p2 cards (24 min) =$5,100
Not to mention indirect costs such as downtime, swapping and downloading etc for P2.
Just the way I see it in my limited thinking.
Is it wrong of me to say that Ill take my chances on the look of the production which in my opinion is not going to be that noticeable by the average observer.
braw
Well-known member
Editor321 said:Braw,
I was playing into your sarcasm...but maybe I should clarify that as well.
I obviously missed that then. I'm not a huge fan of the price of P2, but I am infinately thankful that Panasonic went with a pro aquisition format and tried to pioneer a way to record it for much cheaper than a DVCPRO HD tape system. If it's too much out of your reach in price, there are definately other options.
HDV is great in the sense that it records to a very cheap medium, but I would rather struggle a bit more with twice the color sampling and 4 times the badwidth with uncompressed audio. It's a fantastic happy medium between a DVX and a Varicam, with some pioneering improvements.
The problem with the P2 has been the clientele. Hey, they are spending $50000 on a camera(s), what's another $10,000. with this HVX people are going balk at paying the cost of camera in media. The know that a 1GB flash card sells for $150. Sure, the P2 can handle 700 Mbps, but you know what, only need 100 Mbps
braw
Well-known member
Editor321 said:
Of course it's not wrong for you to have your opinion. I just don't think the formats are comparable. For me, I do alot of green screen and visual effects. For this HDV doesn't work so well. Maybe the JVC version is better, but all signs point to DVCPRO HD being the better option. A cinealta would be the best, but that's probably a several hundred thousand dollar jump from this new HVX.
I personally see the quality going from DV to HDV then DVCPRO HD and then uncompressed. The jumps in price vs. the quality you get seem to point to the HVX (unless they screw the thing up from now until release).
braw
Well-known member
Well, there are software solutions that work pretty well, but they're cheats. The better the initial image quality, the better any post can be. It's all pixel pushing, and more information is always better.
I would also love to hear a good solution to any fast moving green screen stuff on HDV. Any quick action may cause issues that will be very hard to fix.
I would also love to hear a good solution to any fast moving green screen stuff on HDV. Any quick action may cause issues that will be very hard to fix.
braw
Well-known member
Cheating is meant that some programs actually try and upconvert the footage to compensate for the steppy edges (Ultimatte). The cheat is that for the program to work well, it tries to obtain a 4:4:4 ratio as best it can from the source. So doesn't it stand to reason, the closer the source the better it will be?
I'm not saying DV or HDV can't do green screen, but I doubt I could be convinced that 4:2:2 wouldn't be better for this.
I've never keyed HDV, but I have heard repeatedly that large amounts of motion can cause drops in resolution. Not a good thing if true.
I'm not saying DV or HDV can't do green screen, but I doubt I could be convinced that 4:2:2 wouldn't be better for this.
I've never keyed HDV, but I have heard repeatedly that large amounts of motion can cause drops in resolution. Not a good thing if true.
Simon Wyndham
Well-known member
OliverM said:Don't totally agree Simon.
The XDCAM discs are FAR cheaper then P2 for a start. But then P2's have no moving parts so they'll last longer. Ah, choices...
No seriously, seems a bit tight filming 1:1.
Hmz, actually all this would'nt be a problem if instead of 8gig the cards would be 32 or 64. And for the same price off course
Oliver, you missed the point. You don't actually shoot 1:1 ratio. But the fact that you can delete a no-good take instead of having it take up valuable space on the card means that at the end of the day you end up with a card full of usable takes instead of flubs. In other words you have a 2:1 or 1:1 shooting ratio purely by the fact you can delete no-goods. I do this all the time with xdcam, and its reeeeally nice to be able to do.
Simon Wyndham
Well-known member
thisiswells said:
Eh? I think you'll find that the warranty covers it for 7 years, but that the mechanism is also guaranteed for x number of hours use. Some have said that the number of hours that the laser is guaranteed for is quite low. However they do not know how the system works.
When XDCAM records the laser is not continuously running. This is also born out when you look at the system information menu to see how many hours each part has been used for.
Frankly I'm a bit fed up with all the myths around XD, as if the writing mechanism is going to somehow fall apart any second. The camera has been tested in the most extreme conditions. I know people who have used them in places you wouldn't even put yourself, let alone the camera! They worked flawlessly. I myself own one of them, and so far its worked great. So enough of the stupid comments and lets discuss reality.
DinosaurInc
Active member
The one thing that assures me about P2 are these two things:
1. P2 price WILL go down in the future (as well as P2 cards getter bigger)
2. The up-front cost seems high, but it WILL pay for itself in time (if you really use the camera)
For $1500 you get one P2 card--it doesn't seem like a lot. For the price of one P2 card you can get roughly (round to 5) 300 tapes, or 300 hours (max). From one P2 card, you get seemingly endless recording time (limited as it might seem right now). I have friends that not only could use the extra space, but won't have to worry (so much) about upkeep and environments for storing the tapes.
Also, as I understand it, you don't record from the tape heads--so no need to worry about replacing the heads (if I'm wrong--just flame me, I have thick skin) if they go bad. Also, don't have to clean the tape heads.
True that there are some other *accessory* costs, but most people already have a lot of that equipment that they are using to edit with DV. And, you don't HAVE to record on the P2 cards. Given the amount of time HD TV is likely to "explode" onto the market, I'd say that anyone has plenty of time to acquire the money and the cards and STILL have time to spare before this is the universal medium. I tend to think, "Cover as MANY angles as possible." And for that reason, I think that the HVX will be a better buy than HDV. The longevity of the HVX is more appealing and more convincing (right now).
Now, I'm not a techhead and I admit that I know practically nothing of the specifics of either the HD100 or HVX200 dealing with chroma keys and whatnot. But I feel that JVC may have taken itself out of a particular market, whereas Panasonic has put themselves in as many markets (simultaneously) as possible (P2, DV, etc...). What are the formats that JVC supports? About this I am in the dark, but if it records to HDV tape, is it possible to also record to DV tape?
$.02 from an uninformed....well....*storyteller*
1. P2 price WILL go down in the future (as well as P2 cards getter bigger)
2. The up-front cost seems high, but it WILL pay for itself in time (if you really use the camera)
For $1500 you get one P2 card--it doesn't seem like a lot. For the price of one P2 card you can get roughly (round to 5) 300 tapes, or 300 hours (max). From one P2 card, you get seemingly endless recording time (limited as it might seem right now). I have friends that not only could use the extra space, but won't have to worry (so much) about upkeep and environments for storing the tapes.
Also, as I understand it, you don't record from the tape heads--so no need to worry about replacing the heads (if I'm wrong--just flame me, I have thick skin) if they go bad. Also, don't have to clean the tape heads.
True that there are some other *accessory* costs, but most people already have a lot of that equipment that they are using to edit with DV. And, you don't HAVE to record on the P2 cards. Given the amount of time HD TV is likely to "explode" onto the market, I'd say that anyone has plenty of time to acquire the money and the cards and STILL have time to spare before this is the universal medium. I tend to think, "Cover as MANY angles as possible." And for that reason, I think that the HVX will be a better buy than HDV. The longevity of the HVX is more appealing and more convincing (right now).
Now, I'm not a techhead and I admit that I know practically nothing of the specifics of either the HD100 or HVX200 dealing with chroma keys and whatnot. But I feel that JVC may have taken itself out of a particular market, whereas Panasonic has put themselves in as many markets (simultaneously) as possible (P2, DV, etc...). What are the formats that JVC supports? About this I am in the dark, but if it records to HDV tape, is it possible to also record to DV tape?
$.02 from an uninformed....well....*storyteller*
Barry_Green
Moderator
Thanks for the vote!author said:
Seriously, if you can book jobs and make money with the HD100 now, you would be foolish not to get it now, especially if you could make back enough money to pay for the camera.
That's the same thing I've said about the Z1 -- if you can book jobs with it now, if people are demanding HD and you can pay it off now, why *wouldn't* you get it now?
Buying one doesn't lock you in forever to only having that one. If a better tool comes along, sell the one you've got and put that money towards getting the new one.
The only problem I have with the strategy is people who get hung up on brand zealotry and then think that their current solution is as good as, or better than, the "proper" solution. Yes you can use a cinder block to pound a nail, but a hammer's a much better tool for pounding in nails. Use the right tool for the job, that's all I'm saying.
stephenlnoe
Well-known member
HDV's file format is M2T which is HDTV. Anything shot on an HDV camera is broadcast ready unless it needs editing. You guys talk alot of smack....
I'm not an HDV champion but it does have a very important place, right now.
I'm not an HDV champion but it does have a very important place, right now.